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Topic: Locationless Caches, Stupid Idea?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,6:21 am QUOTE

I have seen a new type of cache over on geocaching.com called a LOCATIONLESS CACHE. Apparently, the person doesn't list coordinates for you to go find a box, or even visit a place. They list a thing, such as a canal lock, or a mountain, or a paperclip, or whatever, and you have to go find one, and then post the coordinates, and maybe pics of what you found. So as opposed to using your GPS to hunt something, you find something, and then post the coords. This strikes me, as...well...not even geocaching. It just strikes me as stupid.

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,6:59 am QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ May 16 2002,02:21 am)
This strikes me, as...well...not even geocaching. It just strikes me as stupid.

I'm not too keen on them, either. On the other hand, traditional geocaching strikes many as stupid. To each his own. Personally, I like the experimentation and innovation shown by some of these new cache types. Some work. Some don't. Variety is good. Choice is good. I hope people are not discouraged from trying out new ways to enjoy the hobby.

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NetDep Offline
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Posted: May 16 2002,9:17 am QUOTE

WOW...that is kinda rough...I mean stupid and all.  I would tend to agree with the second reply (actually first reply, second post) that it might be something different.  For me, and my limited experience, I have located two locationless caches (because they were fun) and one "standard."  This is all very new to me and Quinn has been *very* helpful (with several of my stupid questions and exremely patient) and I would hate to think that this site, as opposed to the "other" site put people off by calling things stupid.  Not everyone is an expert with their GPS (me) and some people do not have a lot of outdoor experience (me) and some people might like the mix (me) and some people might like to explore their home area for a caboose or big statue (me) for fun (me).  So - IMHO - for the limited among us I enjoy it - will continue to do it and think it is kinda kewl.  

*Not at all intended to offend, just when I saw that word stupid - kind of a call to action...Thanks for reading.  Enjoy all you do and BE SAFE. :withstupid  :withstupid
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NetDep Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,9:18 am QUOTE

...oopps - guess that proved my point...must have clicked on the emoticon twice...sorry...
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,1:09 pm QUOTE

Geocaching is like a box of chocolates...you never know what yer gonna get :grinnin

I think I may like this concept but I would have to give it a shot first to see, it's kind of like the Virtual caches but in reverse. I myself like the virtual models but have yet to give any a go other than the "Webcam Cache" which was neat.

ASs long as people of different walks like different types then by all means they are welcome and should be excepted. People don't have to go after them if they wish not to, but on the same note people that do want to should have the right to do so. :)

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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,4:28 pm QUOTE

Quote (NetDep @ May 16 2002,11:17 am)
WOW...that is kinda rough...I mean stupid and all.  I would tend to agree with the second reply (actually first reply, second post) that it might be something different.  For me, and my limited experience, I have located two locationless caches (because they were fun) and one "standard."  This is all very new to me and Quinn has been *very* helpful (with several of my stupid questions and exremely patient) and I would hate to think that this site, as opposed to the "other" site put people off by calling things stupid.  Not everyone is an expert with their GPS (me) and some people do not have a lot of outdoor experience (me) and some people might like the mix (me) and some people might like to explore their home area for a caboose or big statue (me) for fun (me).  So - IMHO - for the limited among us I enjoy it - will continue to do it and think it is kinda kewl.  

Actually I like the idea of locationless caches.. they could easily be assigned points, kind of like finding the item with the highest points in a scavenger hunt. They could also easily have a theme.. hm, nice idea!
:D

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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,7:17 pm QUOTE

Okay, here are a few locationless caches for all of you to hunt for:

1) a paperclip
2) a $20 bill.
3) A paved Rd
4) A non-paved rd
5) a park with grass
6) a wooden telephone pole
7) A clue

There you go! Knock yourselves out.  I am going to hunt real caches thank you very much!

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,8:16 pm QUOTE

I am still at a mist here...can you post a link so I can see what it is you are talking of?

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,8:46 pm QUOTE

I’m with Hinge Thunder on this one.

For instance: If you are going to find a manhole that says “The City of ___“ on it. What can you do with a picture of a manhole cover.

On top of that you probably will follow paths instead having the pleasure of bee lining thought dense foliage, having a wild rose bush stringer strafe your neck, find yourself knee deep in poison ivy, all to get to the wrong side of a hip deep creek you’ve already crossed three times.  I mean it’s easy to see whom the stupid ones are here. Stupid people who go after locationless caches will never find a real cache where you get to sign your name and swap out a McDonald toy from your back pack.

For stupid people only - Find a fox hat. Hint. Try the Seneca Park Zoo June 1st.

Road Kill is grinning.

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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: May 16 2002,9:51 pm QUOTE

Quote (Road Kill @ May 16 2002,10:46 pm)
For stupid people only - Find a fox hat. Hint. Try the Seneca Park Zoo June 1st.

Found a fox hat but he won't stay on my head. BTW- anyone willing to pick me up for the picnic?

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DxChallenged Offline
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Posted: May 17 2002,1:51 am QUOTE

Ok...so is locationless cache any relation to benchmark hunting?  Kinda like it.  Esp since Buffalo area is light in the cache placement dept.

Gridley...my parents are leaving from near Myrtyle Beach area on the 27th and leaving on the 2nd of June..........

But the road trips I had with them when I was a kid were an adventure! They frown on spit balls at truck drivers, hate potty breaks and believe in the "drive till you drop" philosophy.

DX

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mrski Offline
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    Posted: May 17 2002,6:41 am QUOTE

As I have been researching caches and the like, I find that the Benchmark Recovery can be good practice for using the GPS and sharpening skills.  Since they usually have pretty accurate location numbers, it is a good way to see how accurate your own GPS is.

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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: May 17 2002,6:51 am QUOTE

Quote (DxChallenged @ May 17 2002,03:51 am)
Ok...so is locationless cache any relation to benchmark hunting?  Kinda like it.  Esp since Buffalo area is light in the cache placement dept.

I am not sure what benchmark hunting is.

A Locationless Cache, is where the person doesn't give you cooridinates. They name an item such as a bridge that crosses water. For your ever so challenging hunt, you have to go find ANY bridge that crosses water, and get the coords of it, and post them (and maybe pictures) online for a find. The GPS unit really isn't nessesary, though they have you post coords so that it passes for something resembling geocaching. It is more of one item scavenger hunt.

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mrski Offline
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    Posted: May 17 2002,7:02 am QUOTE

I stumbled upn the Benchmark hunting as a Locationless cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=11656)  The "Benchmarks" are survey markers and there is a national database of them with fact sheets on where to find them.

DogMa and I have been enjoying locationless and virtual caches since physically we can not handle many hikes, especially bushwacking type.  As fun as it sounds, we know our limitations.

With the Benchmark hunting, there is a web site listed on the cache details page that you can go to and enter your location and search for Benchmarks within any selected radius.  When I first did a search I found two just a couple blocks from my house.  But since they were near the ends of runways at a small airfield, I searched further until I found one ina nearby cememtery where we had just been to a week earlier to bury DogMa's brother-in-law.

Overall, hunting the benchmarks are probably not a lot of fun for experienced cachers, but for us beginners we still enjoy it.

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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: May 17 2002,7:08 am QUOTE

Quote (DxChallenged @ May 17 2002,03:51 am)
Gridley...my parents are leaving from near Myrtyle Beach area on the 27th and leaving on the 2nd of June..........

But the road trips I had with them when I was a kid were an adventure! They frown on spit balls at truck drivers, hate potty breaks and believe in the "drive till you drop" philosophy.

Hehe.. the horrors of childhood! Of course, I was just kidding...

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: May 17 2002,7:09 am QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ May 17 2002,02:51 am)
A Locationless Cache, is where the person doesn't give you cooridinates. They name an item such as a bridge that crosses water. For your ever so challenging hunt, you have to go find ANY bridge that crosses water, and get the coords of it, and post them (and maybe pictures) online for a find.

Hinge, you're just unable to see the similarities between locationless caches and traditional geocaching. Look at it this way. Every geocache is just someone's "find" of a locationless cache.

Here's how it works. Find a good spot to hide something, ANY good spot. Get the coords of it and post them (maybe hide some Tupperware there) for a find (only call it a hide instead of a find).

Hmm... maybe I'll create such a cache and call it "The Mother of all Caches."

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LazyBoy & Mitey Mite Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,6:36 pm QUOTE

I have logged about 10 locationless caches over at geocaching.com.  Jeremy has stated he doesn't like them and they are very difficult to get approved now.

I've worked harder on getting to a locationless cache than I have to a regular cache many times.  Sometimes the basic idea is to challenge the person.  For example it might be something fairly simple such as sitting upon a horse while taking a gps reading.  It may sound stupid to some but trust me, not everyone wants to get on a horse.  Then the cache owner can plot where all these people are on  a map.

It sounds similar here as it is on geocaching.  If you don't like something then bash it.  For me I enjoy all aspects of the hobby.  I like virtuals, reality ones, any of them.  It gets me out and doing something.

Anyway us locationless cache fans have been looking for a site that will host such caches.  It appears we may have to start our own which is being discussed.  

I think there is plenty of room for all forms of caching.  If you guys get hung up on the numbers thing then I think you are missing half the fun.  It's about doing things, not counting.
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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,7:10 pm QUOTE

LazyBoy & Mitey Mite,
Geocaching is a GPS oriented sport. Tell me, on locationless caches, WHY is a GPS required? Many people seem to answer it is so others can visit the 'find'... how many already found (locationless cache) 'finds'  have you visited using posted coords?

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,7:22 pm QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ June 09 2002,3:10 pm)
Tell me, on locationless caches, WHY is a GPS required? Many people seem to answer it is so others can visit the 'find'... how many already found (locationless cache) 'finds'  have you visited using posted coords?

The reason people don't revisit the locations is because the Web sites don't record the spots as locations of virtual geocaches to visit. The spots are recorded in "find" logs instead. Do a ZIP code search or a state/country search and you won't turn up a single one of these spots. That's because the searches don't look in the find logs. They look in the "hide" logs.

Like I said before, the Web sites have the "hides" and "finds" reversed for these caches. Straighten that out and the "problem" with these caches goes away.

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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,7:35 pm QUOTE

Quote (Scout @ June 09 2002,9:22 pm)
Like I said before, the Web sites have the "hides" and "finds" reversed for these caches. Straighten that out and the "problem" with these caches goes away.

We all know your point of view scout. You'd have us visiting every telephone booth in the country. I think the solution is to put locationless caches on another site dedicated to that type of scavenger hunt. I am not against locationless caches, it's just they inherently have nothing to do with using a GPS to find something.

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,8:29 pm QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ June 09 2002,3:35 pm)
We all know your point of view scout. You'd have us visiting every telephone booth in the country. I think the solution is to put locationless caches on another site dedicated to that type of scavenger hunt. I am not against locationless caches, it's just they inherently have nothing to do with using a GPS to find something.

Yes, just like you, I think I have made my point enough times. I guess I repeat myself because you keep misrepresenting my point.

The reason these caches don't look like they are related to finding something with a GPS is because the caches are forced to be logged as "finds" instead of "hides". Reverse that and you'll see that these spots can be hunted with GPS just like all the other ones (unless it's mobile, like a car or horse; then I'm on your side).

And, of course, I am not interested in having you visit every phone booth in the country. In fact, one of my points was just the opposite. With better search and filter tools, you would never have to see a phone booth cache ever. And those who _are_ interested in such things would not have to be banished to another Web site to keep your own view unspoiled.

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,10:03 pm QUOTE

Take a hot air balloon ride and send me the coordinates and a picture to prove you've done it. Find a running steam locomotive 1 point if you see it and two more points if you ride. Send me the coordinates and a photo. I'm building a list of water falls in State of Iowa. Send me a photo and the coordinates.

These may all be very fun things to do but they are not geocaches. Then what is geaocaching but a high tech version of an Easter egg hunt. The only difference is that you use the GPS to find the treasure. It's not that an Easter egg hunt isn't still fun, its just that geocaching is a different game.

I see locationless caches as a high tech version of a scavenger hunt. Both traditional and high tech versions are fun. But a locationless cache is not a geocache no more than a scavenger hunt is a Easter egg hunt.   The rude fact of the matter is that an Easter egg hunt is not geocaching either. The sport of geocaching involves using the GPS to get you to a unique point on the globe.

If someone posted coordinates for a Phone booth(or a cache box) and challenged others to find it there is no doubt you have a geocache. Even virual caches use the coordinate system to get you to hunt a particular area. It's not a phone booth that you are looking for, it's the phone booth in that location and more times than not it's the location that is the treasure.

Reverse caching is not locationless caching either. If I find a phone booth and I give you the coordinates without any indication that you are going to be challenged to find it then it's not a geocache. To say there is a phone booth here is not like establishing a hide. Like a scavenger hunt the challenge for others is to go find there own phone booth. The fact that you used a GPS to mark it is mute.

In summary: There are a lot of fun things to do and one of those things is the adventure of geocaching. Caching sites are geared to support the sport of using the GPS to find locations. Though a scavenger hunt may be fun, geocaching sites are not geared to finding specified things and telling everyone where you found it.   Not to mention keeping score for two different activities.  ???

My two long winded cents.

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LazyBoy & Mitey Mite Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,10:09 pm QUOTE

Well Hinge I appreciate your open mind on the topic.  As I said I just wish there was a little more tolerance for people with different opinions.

Have I ever visited a place I've seen on a locationless cache.  Why yes I have actually.  Another use for the gps, imagine that.  And as I stated above you could map out across the US whatever cache you've entered.  For example, a trail marker on a wilderness trail.  Pictures could be posted and someone interest might be stirred.

But still it doesn't fit YOUR idea of what geocaching is all about.  We have the same problem at geocaching.com.  Hopefully we fans of locationless caches will find ourselves a home before long.

I for one am not at all interested in benchmarks.  I'll never look one up even though there are some close to my home.  I could score some easy points that way.  I just don't care about that.  But if I saw a locationless cache that challenged me to get the coordinates of something that interests me, such as say a rodeo, then I would make plans to do exactly that.
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Posted: June 10 2002,1:40 am QUOTE

Hmmm,

I've never done any locationless caches....but I have done a couple of benchmarks.......

They were logged on a different part of the other site.....and this did not affect my caching count.....it is viewed as something different......I must say that because there are so few caches in my area it is very nice to be able to use my GPS on my lunch hour.  And what I found wasn't just a plate....Did one at the local airport and Fealess and I met a well known pilot from our area.......they eneded up spending time going over weather broadcasts on the computer in the hanger.........Then we attempted another benchmark at the end of one of the runways......started to hike in an found at the base of my feet a cave..butterfly girl could have been swallowed upby it is was most amazing!.  Ended up having to turn back as had to go over private property....went and asked the airport owners if we could go back and find it and they agreed.  Hmm maybe for lunchtime Weds...

But my point is that benchmark hunting has a seperate function there and perhaps that is how locationless caches should be.

My pet peeve is people who equate orienteering with geocaching.......Ya gotta use a GPS for it to be geocaching......but then I heard that a group found one of my caches by description only....egads!

DX

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Morseman Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,7:55 am QUOTE

Quote (Road Kill @ June 10 2002,05:03 am)
These may all be very fun things to do but they are not geocaches. Then what is geaocaching but a high tech version of an Easter egg hunt. The only difference is that you use the GPS to find the treasure. It's not that an Easter egg hunt isn't still fun, its just that geocaching is a different game.

(I've quoted Roadkill here, but only to hang my comments on as a couple of people have made similar comments)

Does that mean that if I work out the grid referrence for a spot, look it up on the map and then go and find the box, without ever touching a GPS receiver, I'm not geocaching?

How would anyone know?

My opinion on locationless caches is to let people go for them if they want, I'd even say let them be logged on a geocaching website.  Why?  Well, two reasons, 1. Obviously some geocache enthusiasts like them (although not all) and 2. Someone starting with a locationless cache might take up the interest in trying to locate a box with goodies in it as well.

If locationless caches are not geocaching, then you might argue that Travel Bugs are not geocaching either.  True, you have to get to the box that they are placed in, but their main objective is to provide interest and amusement to the people who move them around and start them off.  In fact, one TB isn't even open to anyone to get, as it goes round with its owner being logged at the caches that they visit.  Should that be banned as well?  If so, how?

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,10:45 pm QUOTE

Morseman I appologize for not being clear. I never said anything about banning any aspect of caching or the related offshoots of the sport. I was merely defining the differences in aspects of the games.

I didn't talk about "Travel Bugs", (or "Hitchhikers") but yes I would call them geocaches as well. They disappear and reappear in variuos locations. Because of this difference a special type of page has to be built for them so that they too can be included in the mix. This site currently handles it's "Hitchhikers" within the forums mainly because the cache page structure can't track them well. I'm sure this will change and a page will be built that better suits tracking them. I have 4 hitchhikers out there so a ban is the furthest thing from my mind.


Quote
Does that mean that if I work out the grid referrence for a spot, look it up on the map and then go and find the box, without ever touching a GPS receiver, I'm not geocaching?


I heard that one person reported finding a cache with nothing more than a fist held to the sun (I can't verify the method). There have been reports of people just casually coming across a cache. I wouldn't say they're geocaching but I wouldn't deny them credit for a find either.

Quote
In summary: There are a lot of fun things to do and one of those things is the adventure of geocaching. Caching sites are geared to support the sport of using the GPS to find locations. Though a scavenger hunt may be fun, geocaching sites are not geared to finding specified things and telling everyone where you found it.   Not to mention keeping score for two different activities.


I repeat this to add : "Lets evaluate the differences and figure out how to handle it." We certainly get nowhere by picking sides "shouldn't be allowed", "Well I have fun doing it", "What's the challenge?" or "If you don't like it don't bash it".

Listen to the site owners.
Quote
We need to have some sort of guideline in place so that we don't keep spreading thinner in the future. I hate to turn down anyones entry so working this out is quite important.


Lets build a solution rather than knock around the problem.

Edited by Road Kill on --

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willymagoo Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 08 2006,7:45 pm QUOTE

Is it permissible to place locationless caches?  Don't seem to find any info on this.
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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 08 2006,7:59 pm QUOTE

This (Locationless Cache) subject has been discussed a few times here in the forums and those threads can be found using the 'Search' feature. Because one of the previous threads was also titled 'Locationless Caches', I thought I would merge your post rather than start a whole new thread.

We (navicache.com) do not have any ban, moratorium, restriction, or what ever else you may want to call it on any particular cache type. We review each cache as an individual (and some times unique) listing.

To answer your question... While we do not have a specific category for them, and those that have been submitted are usually selected as 'moving' or 'unknown' for the cache type, we do in fact have a  few locationless caches currently active in our database. So yes you can submit a locationless for consideration and yes we will review it, but we do scrutinize them a little more than the more main stream type caches. There are a few reasons for this and the main one would probably be 'quality'. You can check some of the other threads where that issue has already been discussed.


Edited by PC Medic on Mar. 11 2006,6:49 am

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willymagoo Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 09 2006,3:42 pm QUOTE

Thank you for your reply, and the position the site takes on them.  I must say I am in favor of them.  There are those that can physically endure most trails to locate the traditional cache.  I and my wife are partially handicapped.  Some not so strenuous caching we may be able to get to.  I have been promoting caching to a number of people that use walkers and wheelchairs.  They need the mental stimulation as well as getting a little fresh air.  The locationless cache gives those folks a reason to get out and do some thinking to locate and get the pics for the logs.  I know the majority of cachers are younger and able.  Guess I would like to see more for the somewhat physically challenged.  

So...I shall find one to start with and submit it.  We shall see where it goes from there.  

thanks for the ear
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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 09 2006,4:25 pm QUOTE

Thank you for understanding and the best advice I can offer is think 'unique' !
One of the main concerns with locationless type caches is trying to avoid a bunch of common item/place submissions or being abused to promote particular businesses in a given area.

If you have any questions, you can always Contact Us or even PM me.


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