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Topic: Censorship at forums.groundspeak.com, You cannot even mention "Navicache"< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Harrkev Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,8:36 am QUOTE

This is absolutely insane.

On the Grounspeak forums, somebody mentioned the ability to edit the Meridian lawyer screen.  I said that there was a program to do this, and even provided a link (which points here).  The message was "held for review," which probably means that it will never see the light of day. :nono

I went to a "test" thread, and posted a one-word message: "navicache".  Simply put, that one word will exclude a message from being posted.

Jeremy must be very afraid of the competition.  I can see having a list of profane words, but "Navicache" hardly qualifies as profane.
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Harrkev Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,8:43 am QUOTE

I find it to be quite nice that I was able to mention groundspeak.com and geocaching.com without being censored on this forum.

Go first amendment!!!!  :D
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Gimpy Offline
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Posted: Mar. 25 2002,9:45 am QUOTE

Same thing happened to me last week. I posted on a thread about putting your caches on multiple sites, & when I hit the button to post my message, got a message stating that because of terminology used, my post was queued until a moderator could approve it. I used no profanity of any kind in my post. I guess the forums are set up to stop anything with the "N" word.  Navicache. ???  It did finally get posted about 5 hrs. later.

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,10:29 am QUOTE

Quote (Harrkev @ Mar. 25 2002,04:36 am)
This is absolutely insane.

It is not insane. It is a logical tactic by a businessman who wants to suppress competition. Sadly, the tactic gives the lie to his claim that it is his Web site's "sole purpose to promote the new sport of Geocaching."

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Rob Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,12:27 pm QUOTE

Quote
Same thing happened to me last week. I posted on a thread about putting your caches on multiple sites, & when I hit the button to post my message, got a message stating that because of terminology used, my post was queued until a moderator could approve it. I used no profanity of any kind in my post. I guess the forums are set up to stop anything with the "N" word.  Navicache. ???  It did finally get posted about 5 hrs. later.

Yeah the same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago when I mentioned Navicache on the other site. It was held for review but did get posted within a few minutes.
I found this tactic quite revealing about them.

They do seem to allow positive things to be said about Navicache. Maybe they're taking a poll.  :^^

Edited by Rob on --
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mikechim Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,4:02 pm QUOTE

The only navicache thread that was really allowed was one that started off bashing navicache.  Saying something to the effect that it's "people" had went on the posters regional website a bashed Jeremy.  They then said that everyone should pull their caches from navicache.com.  Well myself and a bunch of other people (most I've never scene on these forums)  jumped in supporting navicace.com and saying how great of a site it was and how they doubt the "representatives" of navicache would go on a smear campaign.  Anyway after about 8 positive reviews of navicache the thread was locked.  Didn't bring it up here before just because I didn't see the need to start another battle (geocaching.com vs navicache.com) since the mocache vs no mocache battle was just settling down.  But since it's been brought up figured I'd post it.

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,5:58 pm QUOTE

Must be talking about the message I just received after attempting to post a reply
in this Groundspeak thread

My last post from a few days ago with the same warning never appeared. I guess Navicache has become a dirty word !  :grinnin  because there were sure no other possible trigger words in my reply

Edited by PC Medic on --

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Alan2 Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,7:18 pm QUOTE

I tried posting the following last week in some discussion about listing your cache and didn't get it past the censor.

"Here's all the service sites that I'm aware of that posts caches.  Some have forums as well.

http://www.Geocaching.com
http://www.Navicache.com
http://www.GeocachingWorldwide.com
http://www.Geocaching.hu (European)


The following site combines the caches from all the sites above in a single world wide map and has links and articles about geocaching.  It doesn't post the actual cache. That you do with one or more of the caches posting sites above. When you click on a cache site pushpin, it takes you to the cache page (I don't know what happens if you use more than one service, for example, you post your cache to geocaching.com and navicache.com)_

http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/

Alan"

By the way, I posted all my Queens NY caches on navicache.com also.  They were originally posted only on geocaching.com  I think competition will be good for the consumer.

Alan
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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 25 2002,11:26 pm QUOTE

Quote
Jeremy must be very afraid of the competition.  I can see having a list of profane words, but "Navicache" hardly qualifies as profane.

To be honest, you don't see Coke advertising Pepsi..

He's got alot of time and money tied up in his venture.

Consequently, he's apparently made the decision to "blind" his user base to the competition, however misguided that might be.

I think it's a bad move, business-wise, and if he truly is censoring online posts simply for mentioning the word "navicache", it makes him look foolish as well. :nono

Of course, depending on the parser his forum is using, you might get around that by using alternate spellings that are still phonetically correct...

Edited by dgridley on --

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 26 2002,4:56 am QUOTE

Quote
To be honest, you don't see Coke advertising Pepsi..
........
I think it's a bad move, business-wise, and if he truly is censoring online posts simply for mentioning the word "navicache", it makes him look foolish as well. :nono

You're right Coke doesn't advertise Pepsi, and Pepsi's does  not run around saying "Things go better with Pepsi Cola".

I assure you he censors on the word "Navicache".

There is a new form of cache that has appeared where the cache moves about constantly. The cache is named "Cache Me If You Can". If it sounds familiar it should, it is part of the logo that appears here on Navicache (right at the top of this page as a matter of fact).

Anyway, there is a thread discussing this cache in the Groundspeak forumsto which I responded....

" 'Cache me if you can' Hey!, that sounds a lot like one of the official slogans over at Navicache.com   :grinnin  . That's cool though, sounds like a cool idea, and I am curious to see if this catches on"

So when I submitted this reply, I get a message saying that my post has been held for review due to the fact it contains a "trigger word". Well reading the above, I could bet what that trigger word is.

Edited by PC Medic on --

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 26 2002,10:46 am QUOTE

Quote (dgridley @ Mar. 25 2002,7:26 pm)
To be honest, you don't see Coke advertising Pepsi.

Just so long as we're all clear that the real aim is to make a buck, like Coke and Pepsi are out to do, then Jeremy's tactics make sense. But a few people still seem to believe the claim on geocaching.com that it is the Web site's "sole purpose to promote the new sport of Geocaching."

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Morseman Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 27 2002,3:56 am QUOTE

Quote (Scout @ Mar. 26 2002,5:46 pm)
Just so long as we're all clear that the real aim is to make a buck, like Coke and Pepsi are out to do, then Jeremy's tactics make sense. But a few people still seem to believe the claim on geocaching.com that it is the Web site's "sole purpose to promote the new sport of Geocaching."

The thing that sticks in my craw over all of this is the high moral ground taken over a small businessman who put out alot of caches, but seemed to upset people who wanted to put some in the same area, and was riddiculed for putting his business URL on a little card, or giving away some CD-Roms. (jeeze, if only I had a £1 for every AOL disk that I've been offered by well meaning family & friends!)  And yet the same people who shouted "commercialism" are seemingly happy to pay-to-play on the other site now.

The only thing I wont tollerate is intollerance.   :smart

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 27 2002,8:21 am QUOTE

Quote (Morseman @ Mar. 26 2002,11:56 pm)
The thing that sticks in my craw over all of this is the high moral ground taken over a small businessman who put out alot of caches

Yes, the irony was pretty thick on that one. I was reminded of the old comparison to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. While the nasty little battle was waging over business cards and CDs, Jeremy was promoting Hollywood movies, corporate team-building businesses, mail-order hitchhiker sales, and then pay-to-play cache hunting. Ironic.

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muddy_shoes Offline
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Posted: Mar. 27 2002,7:24 pm QUOTE

Please excuse me if I'm missing something here.  It seems like the mud slinging from emplacements on the moral highground is taking place right here.  I've never been very active in the sport, but after reading this and other threads, I immediately went to 'the other site' and plunked my money down.

Pay to play?  Looks to me like it's still free unless the cache placer wants it otherwise.  

Censorship?  I agree this is a major mistake, but the messages in this thread would lead me to believe that at least some messages DO show up after being 'reviewed'.

I'm not surprised that Jeremy wants some kind of reward for the time and effort he has invested.  I don't know the people running this site and I applaud the great work they've done, but volunteers have a bad habit of burning out.  Are you certain that you will have the same level of enthusiasm two years down the road?  Will your actions in 2004 be 100% in sync with the statements you've made today?

I just hate to see wedges driven between competing groups.  The sport is all that will suffer.

Just my $0.02 worth.  I'll now disappear...

Rick  WŲYGH
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Scout Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 27 2002,7:58 pm QUOTE

Quote (muddy_shoes @ Mar. 27 2002,3:24 pm)

Rick, you're welcome to contribute to geocaching.com. I'm sure the money will be well spent.

You're also welcome to call it "free" so long as information about some caches can be seen without paying a fee. I'll call it "pay-to-play" so long as a growing number of caches are hidden from non-paying geocachers. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Yes, volunteers have a habit of burning out. A good antidote to this is recruitment of new volunteers. geocaching.com never explored this option publicly. The imposition of fees was decided in a manner quite different from how most communities of volunteers operate.

We all hate to see wedges. I registered with NaviCache.com only after my posting privileges on geocaching.com were revoked. I wasn't the one swinging the hammer.

Why should you disappear? Dialog is good.

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 27 2002,9:19 pm QUOTE

Yes, I agree with scout, you are most welcome here as well as your opions. We have been around quite longer than you may think and instead of backing down a gear or two we have slowly but surely picked up speed as far as the additions to the website. A thing you may wish to take into consideration is the fact you are only able to go by one sites thoughts which is this ones, why do I say that? because on the other site those thoughts and opinions are blocked unless posing negative about Navicache.
I have sat here and reading the comments as they rolled in and let it go at that, but hearing you say that you plunked down your money just because of what ws mentioned here made little sense to me but I may have over looked something.
I look at it this way...It was stated by the other sites owner that his only wish was to see the sport progress and that seeing this happen was his top priority, yet he bans anyone or censors and locks threads that have anything to do with a site other than his own.
If you would have walked into the Geocaching website and mentioned that you just plunked down money here at Navicache your post would have been deleted, oh wait! it would never have been added!
But it's good to see a new face here and I hope you decide to continue your visits. You have an opinion and I am sure it is as important to you as mine is to me.  :)

Edited by Quinn on --

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Choberiba Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 28 2002,1:08 pm QUOTE

I just want to add that what a lot of people are complaining about isn't directly tied with money.

I bought about $100 worth of stuff from the other site, thinking that I was supporting a non-commercial hobby.

A PayPal link can still be found at the bottom of the other site, I've donated in the past for the reasons listed above but noticed that none of those previous donations count towards my "membership" even though the sum is greater than $30.

I guess in short, I'm just bummed that what could have been a great example of people working together for mutual enjoyment, has become just another dot.com.

$30 isn't a lot of money for the bandwidth the heavy users consume, so for me the dollar figure is irrelevant.

The data being horded and the messages being screened for content are unacceptable to me. I started the usenet group because I wanted to be able to use an occasional swear word, say that Quinn looked hot in black leather pumps, speak my mind about whatever without worry of being kicked off.

My keyboard is shot so I'll finish with:

Pepsi doesn't have a PayPal-donate button on the bottom of their site. He needs to decide if this is a business or a project.
I'll support him in either context but the way it looks to me at the moment, he's swinging both ways. That's never favorable to the people you're interacting with.

It's like being in a marriage and diddling the checkout girl.
Nothing wrong with a little trim, but it's sleazy if you're putting on a faithful facade
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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 28 2002,3:18 pm QUOTE

Quote
Quinn looked hot in black leather pumps,


THAT ! is NOT a pretty picture to put in ones mind   :sick

Edited by PC Medic on --

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 28 2002,4:32 pm QUOTE

Quote
Please excuse me if I'm missing something here.  It seems like the mud slinging from emplacements on the moral highground is taking place right here.  I've never been very active in the sport, but after reading this and other threads, I immediately went to 'the other site' and plunked my money down.

Pay to play?  Looks to me like it's still free unless the cache placer wants it otherwise.  

Censorship?  I agree this is a major mistake, but the messages in this thread would lead me to believe that at least some messages DO show up after being 'reviewed'.

I'm not surprised that Jeremy wants some kind of reward for the time and effort he has invested.  I don't know the people running this site and I applaud the great work they've done, but volunteers have a bad habit of burning out.  Are you certain that you will have the same level of enthusiasm two years down the road?  Will your actions in 2004 be 100% in sync with the statements you've made today?

I just hate to see wedges driven between competing groups.  The sport is all that will suffer.

Just my $0.02 worth.  I'll now disappear...

Rick  WŲYGH

Hello Muddy Shoes, and let me first (as one of the people running this site) say Welcome to Navicache, and I hope you don't just speak and run. Everyone and every opinion is welcome here.

I also am not surprised that Jeremy wants some kind of reward for his efforts as I (and the rest on the team as far as I know) are the same way. I guess the difference however, is that our (or at least my) rewards are in everytime a new member signs up, or every time someone sends an email or posts a message in the forum telling us how they like a new feature, and what a great job we are doing. Do I think we will have the "same level of enthusiasm two years down the road?", and "Will our actions in 2004 be 100% in sync with the statements we've made today?", I like to think so.
You see I believe that the only volunteers that burn out, are those that refuse to work with, and accept help from other volunteers. So to answer your question...if the sport, and all its participants continue to show the current level of entusiasm, then yes, I think we will to. Because after all, we started this site, and continue to maintain this site out of our enjoyment of the sport, and not the money.  

Now, As for the censorship issue (which is what this thread was all about), I whole heartedly disagree with censorship of a members opinions in the forums. Now obviously false statements, personal attacks, and abusive or vulgar language (also known as Mud Slinging), or discussions of illegal activities, can not be tolerated, but that is not what folks are doing here now is it.  Instead they are discussing how another site has chosen to censor (remove or refuse) their posts based on simple mention of something they do not agree with, and in many cases seemingly, simply because of who they associate with.
I mean look at my example earlier in this thread, hardly cause for a post not to make it past the censors. But hey, that's just my opinion, and as I said, opinions are welcome here.

By the way, did I mention that I can not even place a post that contains my signature line there? Nope, get the cute little posting police pop-up and post never appears.

Now you tell me who is driving the wedges between the groups!

Edited by PC Medic on --

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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: April 05 2002,7:23 am QUOTE

OOPS! Got a message from that board that someone got a Garmin GPS V for $425.  I sent a reply that I got one for $409 including shipping and used the link from here.  Their censorship creeper caught the referral extention (I had forgotten about it when I used it) and is holding it for review.  I guess thats one reply that won't make it.

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: April 05 2002,8:14 am QUOTE

lol...way it goes I guess ;)  at least you saved some cash. I hope you like the gps, I love mine.
Used it to get down to Virginia and it never skipped a beat until I went into an area that I didn't have the maps loaded...wouldn't you know it had to be Baltimore!!! :angry:
Getting turned around in Baltimore is nooooo fun at all.

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Choberiba Offline
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    Posted: April 05 2002,10:37 am QUOTE

I didn't want to start a whole new thread for this, but I couldn't help but be a little amused as people try to figure out a way to slip in the word Navicache in their post.


I may just have to pop in and type w w w . n a v i c a c h e . c o m to slip by the autofilters.

[I used shorterlink with a pointer to one of my caches since shorterlink didn't want to make a link to the navicache home page]

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: April 05 2002,11:22 am QUOTE

Chobey...just so you know... this site also owns www.geocachingplanet.com and www.geo-cache.com which will also take you here. I am sure they are unknown and unblocked, though soon may be  :grinnin

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Choberiba Offline
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    Posted: April 06 2002,1:42 am QUOTE

Thanks Quinn, I'll keep those domains in mind as well.

I've decided *not* to copy the cache only listed here to gc.biz

I linked to it as http://shorterlink.com/?TLTTD2 to bypass any filters. People on the other site were making a good argument that if *all* caches are listed on both sites than why bother with the others. I might just have to remove my others from over there but not quite yet.

FWIW I just remembered to change the link on www.cachestash.com to point to this site.

I'm really bad at updating it.

A word of warning to the curious, I have a *HUGE* image that loads from the getgo, I'm trying to figure out where in the heck the city in the photo is. (2.5 MB)

It came in one of my daily downloads of...um...art?

Since I'm standing here at the microphone anyway, I can't help but to wonder out loud if the cache difficulty ratings are destined to remain at Easy/Medium/Hard ??

I'd like to see a greater range available though I *love* the current ability to add info such as "water" "restrooms" "pets"...
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: April 06 2002,3:14 am QUOTE

The cache rating and terrain has been changed a couple of days ago...you can now rate a cache from "1.0" up to "5.0" instead of easy, medium, hard. :) just go to your cache page and use the dit feature. We didn't want to post anything public yet as we were trying to make sure everything was working fine before hand.

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Alan2 Offline
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    Posted: April 06 2002,5:46 am QUOTE

Anyone who's followed my posts here and at geocaching.com knows I had been a very harsh critic of Geocaching.com   I recently complained about the "censorship" in their forum as to the mentioning of other caching sites.  

Frankly, I had to eat crow about my position and apologize as I was wrong.  Here's Jeremy's response posted on the Geocaching.com site to my unfair complaint.  

Quote
 
"The two sites are navicache.com and geocachingworldwide.com - I do not censor these sites, but we have had problems with folks spamming the forums so it goes into an approval queue. If the posts are appropriate they are approved.

Jeremy

Jeremy Irish
Groundspeak Lackey and Geopuppet"



You have to give the man his due.  
Alan
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: April 06 2002,6:37 am QUOTE

Alan...what does he consider spam?
I can sit here right now and name three threads in his forum where a debate has taken place and once it started going "pro Navicache" the thread was locked and no more comments were allowed.

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: April 06 2002,7:07 am QUOTE

Based on my "personal" experiences I would say that is a load.
I would think even he could come up with a better excuse than that.  

I have an example of a post I made earlier in this very thread, tell me how that example constitutes SPAM? Yet it and several others have never been "approved" as he calls it. In fact, the only post of mine in the past month that has finally appeared (after 5 days) was in "TEST" form and was simply my signature line, nothing more.

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: April 08 2002,7:19 am QUOTE

Quote
Frankly, I had to eat crow about my position and apologize as I was wrong.

I think you apologized too soon. I mentioned http://www.geocachingworldwide.com in a reply to a post on geocaching.com. The text of my post was replaced by Jeremy Irish with a sentence saying advertising is not allowed in the forums. I replied asking what constitutes advertising. My post was deleted. My posting privileges were revoked. I never received a reply to my inquiries about the matter. This happened nine months ago, so censorship on the geocaching.com forums is nothing new.

Edited by Scout on --

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Katetrex Offline
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    Posted: April 16 2002,2:41 pm QUOTE

Actually someone has recently posted a message that contained the word Navicache and it slipped by the censors -- it was in Morse Code.   :)
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