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Topic: Pay to Play, Should geocaching be free?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Jan. 15 2006,3:39 pm QUOTE

Quote (Bill & Tammy @ Jan. 13 2006,6:24 am)
Quote (motogrrl @ Jan. 06 2006,12:13 am)
It strikes me that, since there are many people who are unhappy that Locationless Caches have been canned from That Other site, setting up LC's here might be a cool thing.

(Friends don't let friends Waymark)

Not to open up a can of worms (well, maybe I am) and also not to bash another site here but it seems threads with any criticism or open discussion of other sites seem to get locked by moderators over there pretty quicky (hmmm?) I wanted to pose the following:

Is GCing.com (or any other geo  listing site for that matter) a publishing service or a sanctioning body?

If they (GCing.com) are strickly a commercial cache listing service is it a good thing that they have the influence to dictate the pursuit of caching to the extent that they do?

If they are a sanctioning body, would it not be better instead to have a worldwide association of cachers with elected officers that sanction the activity rather than a for-profit institution that may or may not have conflicts of interest?



I see gc.com as a commercial entitity that has been successful so far (to some extent) in convincing many it is the 'official' sanctioning body for all geocachers in the universe.  :grinnin  I say this because of the countless times I have seen on gc.com, other sites forums and in newsgroup posts where someone is telling a newcomer that they can not do some particular twist on the sport because gc.com says so in their terms of use.

Personally I do not think any one body (elected or otherwise) should have control over any aspect of the game. There are too many variations and it is played in every corner of the world, posing universal restrictions/rules would be unfair to many as what is not acceptable in one region may be in another, just as what is not an interesting type cache to one may interest many others.


Quote

Let me again stress I am not trying to bash GCing.com over here because I think it is a great service with many positives
but I was just wondering with all the across the board changes (Buxley's, locationlesses, virtuals) that may affect the vast majority of cachers why these things are?


I guess the simple answer would be 'because they can'. I suspect they look at the books and see what type caches and site features bring in the most dollars and at what cost. The rest is simple accounting. They do have a business to run after all.


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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Jan. 15 2006,3:57 pm QUOTE

Quote (Renegade Knight @ Jan. 15 2006,4:26 pm)
With that said and  back on the original topic. Geocaching was never free, it is not free and will never be free.  Someone pays the bills for Navicache, Someone does it for Geocaching.com and Terracaching.com and so on.  The only real quesiton is who's going to pay and how?  If geocachers are never to pay, then someone else will have to do so.

Well in the beginning it actually was as hides/finds were being announced in public newsgroups. :grinnin

You are correct that a structured listing service is being paid for by someone, but is requiring a fee to play the answer or is there another way? Do you pay someone a required fee to tell you how to play the game, or make a voluntary donation (hint :grinnin ) to be able to play your way?


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    Posted: Jan. 21 2006,1:07 pm QUOTE

... and now we're told what we can and cannot trade/sell/announce on the geocoin forums over there.  I worry about gc.com trying to get too much control over all aspects of the game.

Other than that, they are the best place to go for finding & publishing caches.  They have the best user experience, the most features, and the most listings.

But I still often list my caches here first, at least until the FTF has been grabbed, just to keep people on their toes!
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    Posted: Jan. 21 2006,6:54 pm QUOTE

Quote (ChileHead @ Jan. 21 2006,3:07 pm)
... and now we're told what we can and cannot trade/sell/announce on the geocoin forums over there.


Trade/Sell/Announce what exactly?

Quote

I worry about gc.com trying to get too much control over all aspects of the game.


Well the truth is, they can/will only have as much control over the game as the players give them. We (along with other sites) offer plenty of alternatives for those that choose to use them. Kind of like complaining about the politician as you are casting your vote for him.

Quote

Other than that, they are the best place to go for finding & publishing caches.  They have the best user experience, the most features, and the most listings.


Yep, they have the most listings... and there was a time when Apple ruled the personal computer market.

As for "best user experience" I guess that depends on what you are looking for, but I personally would disagree with that one in a very big way.

Features possibly, but at what cost? (And I am not speaking just monetary here either). You just brought up the concern they may be trying to gain "too much control over  all aspects of the game". Site features, they have some we do not yet offer, but then that is because they offer a feature we do not 'Pay-for-play' , where we rely entirely on donations (hint :grinnin ) I also think we (navicache.com) and others offer the best feature of all... keeping the control of the game where it belongs, in the hands of the users.

Quote

But I still often list my caches here first, at least until the FTF has been grabbed, just to keep people on their toes!


And we appreciate it and hope to add more features to bring more folks our way.


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ChileHead Offline
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    Posted: Jan. 21 2006,7:26 pm QUOTE

[quote=PC Medic,Jan. 21 2006,8:54 pm][/quote]
Quote
Trade/Sell/Announce what exactly?


Geocoins specifically.  Geocoins started out as travel bugs (more or less), but then seemed to evolve to personal signature items.  The forums were often used to announce a new signature coin for trade or sale.  

Now, it is only allowed if the coin is trackable at geocaching.com (meaning groundspeak gets $1.50 per coin.)   Caused a lot of uproad, and man hundreds and hundreds of posts about it.

Now you can trade, but can't mention a sale.  Can't post a link in your post to another coin site.  Hey, it's their forums and they have a right to do what they want.  I just wish it was handled better because it pissed a lot of people off who otherwise really like all other aspects of the site.


Quote
As for "best user experience" I guess that depends on what you are looking for, but I personally would disagree with that one in a very big way.


I'm looking for an easy way to find listings that match what my search criteria are, generally, caches that I haven't already found.

It seems like navicache has been fairly static in recent years, and hasn't offered new features like pocket queries, insta-notify, both of which I heavily use.  But like you said, more people write out their $30/year check to "Jeremy", and not "Quinn".
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    Posted: Jan. 22 2006,5:52 am QUOTE

Quote (ChileHead @ Jan. 21 2006,9:26 pm)
Quote (PC Medic @ Jan. 21 2006,8:54 pm)

Quote
Trade/Sell/Announce what exactly?


Geocoins specifically.  Geocoins started out as travel bugs (more or less), but then seemed to evolve to personal signature items.  The forums were often used to announce a new signature coin for trade or sale.  

Now, it is only allowed if the coin is trackable at geocaching.com (meaning groundspeak gets $1.50 per coin.)   Caused a lot of uproad, and man hundreds and hundreds of posts about it.

Now you can trade, but can't mention a sale.  Can't post a link in your post to another coin site.  Hey, it's their forums and they have a right to do what they want.  I just wish it was handled better because it pissed a lot of people off who otherwise really like all other aspects of the site.

If they sell or offer the service (what ever it may be), I suppose I can see their limiting third party activity within their own forums  if it may have a direct impact on their business. Not being able to discuss geocoins would not make sense IMHO, as it would only stir interest in a product/service they sell. Not allowing trade via the forums I am kind of split on as geocoins are personalized (individual, team, orginization designs) so unless someone is offering to trade out a GC.com coin which may cost them a sale in some way I am not sure where they see the harm, but then it is their site and their forums. Offering them for sale, this would depend as here in our own forums commercial posts are not permitted.

Quote

Quote
As for "best user experience" I guess that depends on what you are looking for, but I personally would disagree with that one in a very big way.


I'm looking for an easy way to find listings that match what my search criteria are, generally, caches that I haven't already found.


You are correct that the ability to search cache listings you have not logged is not yet available, but it is planned, as are some other new features.

Quote

It seems like navicache has been fairly static in recent years, and hasn't offered new features like pocket queries, insta-notify, both of which I heavily use.  But like you said, more people write out their $30/year check to "Jeremy", and not "Quinn".


There have been some additions, bug fixes and improvements, but yes things lately were moving even slower than we had anticipated. You can look for this to change as we begin to push ahead again.

We do offer the ability to download your search results (in several formats) and at no charge. I am not sure what the 'Insta-Notify' feature you mention is, so can not say for sure if we will be offering it, but would ask that you put this and any other suggestions in our Suggestions and Feedback forum. This will not only help us get an idea of what you are looking for, but also help keep this thread (pay-tp-play) on-topic.


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    Posted: Jan. 25 2006,9:34 pm QUOTE

Insta Notify. Skydiver used to offer this.  The gist is that a cache in your area comes up, and Naviache sends out an email.  Instant Gratification.  You read the message on your Cell phone and bag a FTF.

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    Posted: Jan. 25 2006,9:43 pm QUOTE

Quote (PC Medic @ Jan. 15 2006,3:57 pm)
Quote (Renegade Knight @ Jan. 15 2006,4:26 pm)
With that said and  back on the original topic. Geocaching was never free, it is not free and will never be free.  Someone pays the bills for Navicache, Someone does it for Geocaching.com and Terracaching.com and so on.  The only real quesiton is who's going to pay and how?  If geocachers are never to pay, then someone else will have to do so.

Well in the beginning it actually was as hides/finds were being announced in public newsgroups. :grinnin

You are correct that a structured listing service is being paid for by someone, but is requiring a fee to play the answer or is there another way? Do you pay someone a required fee to tell you how to play the game, or make a voluntary donation (hint :grinnin ) to be able to play your way?

True enough. It started in the newsgroups.  What makes it possible as we enjoy it though is sites like this.  Online listings and online logs.  Without this 'convenience' caching would of never got off the ground like it has.  The price is that it's not free (even the newsgroups are paid for by someone...) and someone foots the bill for bandwidth, etc.

Pay to play?  Odds are there will always be a free site, but the with that comes the fact that they will also come and go and take their logs and history with them.  Just like Geocachingworldwide did.  Hopefully there is a good solution out there.  I'm not sure if it's the geocaching.com model where you pay for extra convenience, or if it's the everybody pays a little model.  Short of an endowment though it's going to be one way or the other in the long run.


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    Posted: Jan. 30 2006,4:25 am QUOTE

There is difference between "pay to play" and the hobby being completely free.

Nothing in life is free.  You could look at simply taking a walk around the block as not free.  You have to pay for your shoes, your clothes (if you want to leave the house, or you have to live a nudist colony), you have to live somewhere where there is a block, etc.

I think when folks are talking about "free" as it relates to "pay to play" they're talking about the notion of having to pay someone for the free (as in unencumbered) flow of cache information.  Sure, infrastructure has to be paid for somehow.

Your local library has to be paid for somehow.  Most of the time it's through taxes from various sources.  However, almost anyone can go in, grab a book, plop their butt in a chair, and start reading.  If you qualify, you can get a membership (generally for free) and take a book home.

With Groundspeak, sure you can find cache data, but to get anything remotely efficiently you have to pay for the privilege.    Instead of it being like a library, it's more like a Barnes & Noble.

Quite frankly, I can't blame them for wanting to make a buck off the hobby.  My problem is their business model where they want  to be the only site in town and control every aspect, the heavy-handed tactics, and general arrogance.  They could have done things a lot differently and actually made out better--and there would have been a lot less hate and discontent.
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    Posted: Jan. 30 2006,4:28 am QUOTE

Quote (Renegade Knight @ Jan. 25 2006,11:43 pm)
Odds are there will always be a free site, but the with that comes the fact that they will also come and go and take their logs and history with them.

This could be solved if there were a common XML standard for cache data, a general acceptance that cache logs can be freely distributed with the cache data, and upon every log notification the cache owner received a complete copy.

This way, if a site goes down, the cache data could be imported into another site.

The problem is the 600lb gorilla and getting that standard in place.
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epicanis Offline
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    Posted: Feb. 19 2006,1:21 pm QUOTE

Quote (CoyoteRed @ Jan. 30 2006,6:28 am)
Quote (Renegade Knight @ Jan. 25 2006,11:43 pm)
Odds are there will always be a free site, but the with that comes the fact that they will also come and go and take their logs and history with them.

This could be solved if there were a common XML standard for cache data, a general acceptance that cache logs can be freely distributed with the cache data, and upon every log notification the cache owner received a complete copy.

This way, if a site goes down, the cache data could be imported into another site.[...]

On that note:  perhaps Navicache (and others?) could dump their data (or at least the data that is at least "free for non-commercial use") to such a format and periodically put new files up via bittorrent or something of the sort for that purpose.

As a bonus, it would then be possible to get updates to the data without having to directly query the Navicache server and suck up CPU time and bandwidth, and everyone bittorrent'ing the copy of the data dump would be in effect helping to pay for the bandwidth.  (I love the XML dump feature, but I always feel slightly guilty if I use it much...)


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    Posted: Feb. 21 2006,5:50 pm QUOTE

Working out technical solutions for sharing data has never been the issue. The issue has always been getting players to care enough about sharing data to patronize sites that actually share the data.

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: Feb. 21 2006,6:23 pm QUOTE

Quote (Scout @ Feb. 21 2006,7:50 pm)
Working out technical solutions for sharing data has never been the issue. The issue has always been getting players to care enough about sharing data to patronize sites that actually share the data.

Bingo!

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    Posted: April 25 2007,2:25 pm QUOTE

Being new here, I'm a little hesitant to speak out, but I tend to be fairly opinionated anyway, so here goes.

I think that goecaching/navicaching should be free, however, there's nothing wrong with paying extra for extra features, if you want them.  Personally, I prefer to keep it free and not to pay for features that I won't use.  I just want to get outside, get some exercise and find stuff with my kids.

That said, I'd like to use my first post to say thanks to our hosts here for all their hard work and for providing the site for us.

:bow:   :rock:


Edited by Seronac on April 26 2007,1:39 pm
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    Posted: April 25 2007,6:45 pm QUOTE

Many additional features might have been available and all features might be cheaper or even free if multiple sites had access to the waypoints chosen by and submitted by the geocaching community at large, instead of one site holding a monopoly on the data. Or not. We'll never know. But once a year or so, it's great to brush off old topics. ;-)

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    Posted: April 26 2007,1:54 pm QUOTE

Quote (Scout @ April 25 2007,1:45 pm)
... instead of one site holding a monopoly on the data. Or not. We'll never know. But once a year or so, it's great to brush off old topics. ;-)

LOL, good idea.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was one, open place on the internet that could house all of locations of all the caches in the world (sort of a cache clearinghouse), with the data shared for free, on an open basis among all the other sites? It would be sort of like a GNU license for cache data.  (You can use use it, sell it or do whatever with it, but you can't call it your own, and the cache site data ownership is held in partnership by the clearinghouse and/or the cache owner.) There would be the same, basic data, with the various sites offering it for free or for a fee, depending on their model and the additional features they offer, and with comments and individual status located on each site.

The big question is, then: How would the clearinghouse be funded?  Perhaps by a foundation with various sites and/or individuals paying for membership and accreditation?

I don't know, it's just an idea (and personally, I think it's a brilliant one ;) ).  Somebody can take it and run with it, if they want.
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    Posted: April 26 2007,3:06 pm QUOTE

Now why didn't we think of that!  :grinnin

This is actually very similar to the concept 'Geocaching with Navicache' was founded on, but then most know that. Not really one central database, but the sharing of the many possible databases through a standardized interface. This prevents the loss of cache data should a central database go down.

The rest is just as we envisioned it.


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    Posted: April 26 2007,3:44 pm QUOTE

Quote (PC Medic @ April 26 2007,10:06 am)
Now why didn't we think of that!  :grinnin

This is actually very similar to the concept 'Geocaching with Navicache' was founded on, but then most know that. Not really one central database, but the sharing of the many possible databases through a standardized interface. This prevents the loss of cache data should a central database go down.

The rest is just as we envisioned it.

Well, good for you, that's awesome! Great minds...

I guess that shows my ignorance of the way things work. (Can you tell I'm a newbie? ;) )

So, now, the big question is, "How do we get the rest of the world to buy in to it?"
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    Posted: June 16 2007,2:19 pm QUOTE

Quote (CoyoteRed @ Jan. 30 2006,6:25 am)
There is difference between "pay to play" and the hobby being completely free.

Nothing in life is free.  You could look at simply taking a walk around the block as not free.  You have to pay for your shoes, your clothes (if you want to leave the house, or you have to live a nudist colony), you have to live somewhere where there is a block, etc.

I think when folks are talking about "free" as it relates to "pay to play" they're talking about the notion of having to pay someone for the free (as in unencumbered) flow of cache information.  Sure, infrastructure has to be paid for somehow.

Your local library has to be paid for somehow.  Most of the time it's through taxes from various sources.  However, almost anyone can go in, grab a book, plop their butt in a chair, and start reading.  If you qualify, you can get a membership (generally for free) and take a book home.

With Groundspeak, sure you can find cache data, but to get anything remotely efficiently you have to pay for the privilege.    Instead of it being like a library, it's more like a Barnes & Noble.

Quite frankly, I can't blame them for wanting to make a buck off the hobby.  My problem is their business model where they want  to be the only site in town and control every aspect, the heavy-handed tactics, and general arrogance.  They could have done things a lot differently and actually made out better--and there would have been a lot less hate and discontent.

Not to re-open a can of worms, but I have to agree that the "pay-to-play" idea is a bad idea.  In that just about everything I've read on GeoCaching always bills it as a free hobby, sport, activity.

Now comes along gc.com or some other "pay-to-play" site that tells 'em hay we've got this great list of caches in yer area, but oops, you've gotta pay in order to use it.  And if ya don't want to play well here are some caches that were put out "10 years ago," go and knock yourself out looking for these.

Also are the "premium caches" actually held to a higher standard then the free caches at those "pay-to-play" sites or are they the same sort that are listed as non-premium caches?


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    Posted: June 16 2007,6:07 pm QUOTE

Quote (CoyoteRed @ Jan. 30 2006,6:25 am)
Also are the "premium caches" actually held to a higher standard then the free caches at those "pay-to-play" sites or are they the same sort that are listed as non-premium caches?


Actually, sometimes we look and wonder why a cache is posted as a "premium member" only.  There really isn't a difference in quality or anything special about the ones we've seen.


Edited by TeamDotOne on June 16 2007,6:10 pm
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    Posted: June 16 2007,10:41 pm QUOTE

Quote (TeamDotOne @ June 16 2007,8:07 pm)
Quote (CoyoteRed @ Jan. 30 2006,6:25 am)
Also are the "premium caches" actually held to a higher standard then the free caches at those "pay-to-play" sites or are they the same sort that are listed as non-premium caches?


Actually, sometimes we look and wonder why a cache is posted as a "premium member" only.  There really isn't a difference in quality or anything special about the ones we've seen.

Which raises the question of why list some caches as being "premium/members only"type of cache?  IF there was truly something special about the cache like say a $100.00 gift certificate or a gold coin or something of similar value then I could see it being listed as a "premium/members only" listing.  But if there's nothing "special" about it, it wpuld seem to be something along the lines of elitest, snobish,etc. of the person who hides the cache.

Wouldn't it be better IF "premium/members only" caches were listed as such either unti the FTF had been logged, or a set time limit has passed?

Digital_Cowboy


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    Posted: June 17 2007,1:50 pm QUOTE

Quote (Digital_Cowboy @ June 17 2007,12:41 am)

Wouldn't it be better IF "premium/members only" caches were listed as such either unti the FTF had been logged, or a set time limit has passed?

yep, one would tend to think that would make a lot more sense -- something different or unique just for premium membership.  Maybe at one time there was, and we've only been doing this for about a year, but the ones we've seen listed are pretty much run-of-the-mill caches.
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    Posted: June 17 2007,3:15 pm QUOTE

Quote (TeamDotOne @ June 17 2007,3:50 pm)
yep, one would tend to think that would make a lot more sense -- something different or unique just for premium membership.  Maybe at one time there was, and we've only been doing this for about a year, but the ones we've seen listed are pretty much run-of-the-mill caches.

Tell me about it, I mean yes I realize that the good cachers/hiders do put time and effort into putting together good high quality caches.  But they should be considerate of those who for whatever reason aren’t premium members.

As not being a premium member of any of the web sites myself (I’m on a fixed income) obviously I don’t have access to the premium member listed caches, not even their descriptions (over at gc.com at least).  And over at gc.com there is at least one person in the Tampa Bay area who has made the vast majority of their caches as premium members only caches.  And I think that they’ve been so listed for a year or so.  This person also seems to be about the only one who has the bulk of their caches as being premium member only. :-(  Which I’m sorry but as I said, that seems to be rather “elitist” of them, as it’s almost as if they’re trying to discourage those who aren’t premium members from caching.  I hope that that isn’t the case.

And as we said either after the FTF has been logged or a time limit has passed, then remove ‘em from the “premium members” only list and make ‘em fair game for everyone, premium and non-premium members alike.  And IF the FTF hasn’t been logged before the time limit is reached oh well that’s the risk ya take by publishing a cache as a “premium members” only cache.

Another thing kind of along these lines is how some sites don’t want you to cross post/list your caches with multiple sites.  Given that sadly not all of the sites have as large of a database for every area as gc.com does.  It does make sense that again either after the FTF has been logged or a set time limit has passed that it can be logged with another site.

Maybe particularly if the FTF has been logged placing a lesser valued FTF prize for the next site with a note saying that when listed to such and such site this cache had say a “gold coin” as the FTF but now it has a $10 Target gift card, or some such.  Working down to a low-value FTF prize for the very last site, and again with a note explaining the history of the cache with a list of the sites that it had been listed with before finally being listed with such and such site, and what the past FTF prize(s) were.  Just an idea, don’t know how it’d be received by some of the other sites.

Herman


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    Posted: July 04 2009,1:23 pm QUOTE

Greetings cachers,

I am brand new to geocaching, and like anything else I get into I do some research before jumping in. In a way I'm grateful for the power outage suffered by GC.com yesterday, otherwise I may never have stumbled across this site - and further, this thread.

There is something very wrong about a commercial entity standing on the neck of a community powered endeavor. I can understand if the website offers unique features/convieniences and wants to charge for those - hey thats to be expected. But to charge people just to see caching coordinates is so very wrong and I daresay has no legal standing.

The website does not 'own' the cache site, nor does it 'own' the cache site data. I would think the person who placed the cache would be considered the owner in a court of law. What would stop anyone from contacting cache site creators who post on GC.com and ask their personal permission to post the coordinates of their hiding spots elsewhere on the net?

We know there isnt anything different about the so-called 'premium cache sites' - so what is the criteria for a cache to be labeled 'premium' and who sets that designation?

Is it the cache hider who sets his cache to premium status?

If a cache site is labeled 'premium' does the hider of the cache see some sort of monetary return for his efforts, or is the website the only one making money?

Why would anyone allow a commercial entity to make money on their efforts without seeing something in return? (advertising easily pays for the costs of a website, especially with the amount of traffic GC.com gets, so no, just having the website is not considered 'something in return')

The geocaching community really needs to come to grips with the path that geocaching is on with the GC.com website. Coordinates should always be free, no matter what. They dont belong to anyone except maybe the person who hid the cache. Unfortunately lawsuits are the only way to create clear boundries in situations like this.

Short of a lawsuit, the community can simply boycott adding new cache sites to the GC.com website until they get the hint and stop charging for coordinates. I very much like the stance Navicache takes with coordinates in that you guys will share coords with other sites. Thats great. If I were to place some cache sites in my area and log the data on Navicache.com could it somehow end up on the GC.com website? I ask this because I make efforts for the community at large and I want it to remain free for people to access.. I refuse to support anyone making money from coordinates.


I see that this thread hasnt had any activity in quite a while, so sorry for the necromancy, but I feel strongly about this subject. I'm going to do my best to encourage other cachers in my area to keep caching coordinates free by boycotting geocaching.com and any other for-profit clowns who have ideas of paving their lives with the geocaching pastime.  :nono  :sick


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sabrefan7 Offline
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    Posted: July 06 2009,5:40 pm QUOTE

Welcome to Navicache Mr Pips! I found about caching when I bought my first GPSr. After a year or so I came across this site.  I like and use navicache because its an alternative. I am not a fan of the members only restriction on a cache, but if you pay to become a premium member you have the right to use the membership as you see fit. I have my 3 caches cross listed and cross identified in the hopes of "spreading the word" about Navicache. In the future I will have a couple exclusive caches on here one being a virtual cache. A cache that was banned years ago on GC.com. They banned it in order to make a new game and new site called Waymarking Like any hobby you get out of it what you put into it. I have 3 sites that I can use to cache so  Im very great full that there is an alternative to the frog.
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DudleyGrunt Offline
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    Posted: July 06 2009,7:35 pm QUOTE

Quote
Whether you like it or not, to be fair, what GC actually offers is an option for members to make their own caches restricted to Premium Members.  GC.com does not restrict the PM caches directly.


I know I posted the above in another thread, but I think it basically answers all the questions from Mr. Pipps.

It IS the cache owners that decide to make a cache "Premium Member Only" (pay to play), NOT Groundspeak.  They only provide the option to the cache owner.  As I see it, that falls under the category of "unique features" for the price of the premium membership since you have to be a PM to list a cache as a PM-only cache.

I have my own issues with Groundspeak, but this is not one of them.


Edited by DudleyGrunt on July 06 2009,7:45 pm

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Dave - Happy Trails!
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