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Topic: Leave No Trace Outdoor Ethics, How to minimize your recreational impact< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Leave No Trace Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,9:22 am QUOTE

Greetings!

I'm posting this on behalf of Leave No Trace, Inc. We're a non-profit organization based in Boulder, Colorado, and our mission is to promote and inspire responsible outdoor recreation through education, research and partnerships. We focus primarily on non-motorized recreation.

We're a private organization, but have over 250 non-profit and corporate partners (Appalachian Mountain Club, Appalachian Trail Conference, Green Mountain Club, American Hiking Society, American Whitewater, Maine Island Trails Association, Mount Washington Observatory, Outward Bound USA, the National Outdoor Leadership School, Student Conservation Association, The Wilderness Society, American Mountain Guides Association, L.L. Bean, Subaru, REI, the North Face, Kelty, Coleman, Osprey, Trails Illustrated, Clif Bar, Vasque, Jansport, Marmot, Lowe Alpine, SmartWool, Galyan's, Backpacker Magazine, Cascade Designs, Brunton, just to name a few) that we work with to spread the Leave No Trace message. We've also partnered with the four largest federal land managing agencies in the U.S. -  the U.S. Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. All of these agency partners have adopted our message as their minimum impact message, and work to spread the word to public land users across the country.

I'm posting this to inform you about the Leave No Trace program. We have been hearing a great deal lately about geocaching, particularly from federal and state land managers, regarding the potential impacts that can be caused to plants, animals, water sources, etc. from individuals engaging in this unique activity. Since our mission is to educate ALL recreational users of public lands, we feel this site offers a great opportunity to reach a large new audience of recreationist with a solid minimum impact message. Our message is simple, and is centered around the seven principles of Leave No Trace:

1. Plan ahead and prepare
2. Travel and camp on durable surfaces
3. Dispose of waste properly
4. Leave what you find
5. Minimize campfire impacts
6. Respect wildlife
7. Be considerate of other visitors

For more information on who we are and what we do, please visit our website http://www.lnt.org.

Please remember to Leave No Trace when you're out there having fun!
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mrmom Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,10:08 am QUOTE

All true geocachers practice the very same message.  In addition to what you have mentioned, our philosophy is to “cache in and trash out.”  Many of geocachers hike with a trash bag to pick up trash left by others in the area.   ;)
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Leave No Trace Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,10:37 am QUOTE

That is a great point, and very encouraging that Geocachers are mindful of trash. However, the Leave No Trace message is about more than just trash. Probably one of the most important things for Geocachers to keep in mind is traveling on durable surfaces such as rock, sand, dry grasses, forest duff, snow, etc. By avoiding sensative plant, wet areas, etc., geocachers (and all other recreationist for that matter) can significantly decrease the impact to an area. Keep in mind that one person going off-trail or bushwacking to a cache probably won't make that much impact, but it's the combined impact of many people heading to the same cache that can lead to well-defined "social trails" leading right to a cache. Just something to think about...
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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,11:58 am QUOTE

Ahh...the nature-nazi rhetoric begins again!

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,3:35 pm QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ June 07 2002,1:58 pm)
Ahh...the nature-nazi rhetoric begins again!

I personally like the idea of keeping the parks clean and leaving little trace I was there.
Don't you??

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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,4:14 pm QUOTE

Sure, create a concrete walkway into and out of the woods.

Have Gestapo to make sure you stay on track. :sick

Heaven forbid that you pitch a tent and have a meal cooked over a campfire. :0

I saw this one coming and left it alone the first time I saw it this morning.

I believe in good stewardship, along with reasonable use of the resource.

I camp, geocache, and fish. each of these involve getting off the beaten track.  :love

I sometimes go into the woods with a Gun and shoot Bambi's Papa too. :^^

Edited by Firemedic on --
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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,4:31 pm QUOTE

Quote (PC Medic @ June 07 2002,5:35 pm)
Quote
Ahh...the nature-nazi rhetoric begins again!

I personally like the idea of keeping the parks clean and leaving little trace I was there.
Don't you??

I am all for keeping the parks clean. But the nature-nazis don't end there. They never end anywhere near there. They would love to keep all of the people out of the park alltogether. But that wouldn't wash. So they will go for keeping us on the trails that in these HUGE parks cover only a small area. They start talking about the social trails, etc. Whats the difference between a small trail made by people, versus a small trail made by deer? By their thought, one is destruction, one is nature. I read in one forum, some moron talking about how people going off trail was going to destroy the Rocky Mountains! They want the parks as their own taxpayer-paid-for playground!

The mention of a cache in a national park, and they start talking about irrepairable damage, and start citing millions of visitors to Grand Canyon, and crap. Ever have a million people visit a geocache? A hundred? Try putting one 5 or 10 miles of hiking into a park with a little rough terrain, and the number of visitors will be very small. But they act like you will be driving an SUV right to the cache box.

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,5:15 pm QUOTE

I guess this all depends on how you wish to look at it. I remember when I was a kid looking at all the old "LIfe" magazines and "Outdoor Life" books. I always wanted to go to some of the parks that were seen in the pictures I looked over, but once I was old enough to make my own choices, many of those parks and area's are now houses and paved trails.

I have an 8 year old daughter that means the world to me and my main priority is seeing that she can have the things that maybe I couldn't, this also includes seeing things outdoors that may well be gone by the time she is 20.

Everyone has a point of view and a opinion to voice, if "Leave no trace" wishes to place his on the table we should all welcome it, does this mean you have to agree with it? no! but at least he has the right to voice thoughts that most likely will draw followers that agree with him. I think the word "Nazi" is a very strong word for someone who wishes to make sure that our lands are protected.

Are there things that damage the lands more than caching? of course there are! Like dirt bikes, mountain bikes off trail, quad runners, etc. But none the less we as cachers also need to police each other. I don't want to see a worn trail going to my cache and if there is one that is noticed I would like to think someone would contact me so I could move that cache to allow the plant life to generate back to health.

So, to  "leave no trace" I say welcome to Navicache and the forums!   :)

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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,5:19 pm QUOTE

Quote
1. Plan ahead and prepare
2. Travel and camp on durable surfaces
3. Dispose of waste properly
4. Leave what you find
5. Minimize campfire impacts
6. Respect wildlife
7. Be considerate of other visitors


I plan months ahead for a hunt. I plan days ahead of a cache search.

I travel to and from the parking area on durable surfaces. (usually asphalt or concrete) I use trails where I can, I try not to disturb the natural areas when off trail.

I pack out more than I take in. (which is usually why my pickup bed is always trashed out)

I take what I shoot for food, or taken a small token or a george from a cache.

I am very careful of my campfire impacts.

I have great respect for wildlife.  Probably more than most non-hunters.

I am considerate of all others, visitors and residents.

I learned all these things as a Boy Scout :smart
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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,7:59 pm QUOTE

Quote
Ahh...the nature-nazi rhetoric begins again!

I don't believe you can truly equate the term "nazi" :sick which was associated with the willful extermination of a race of people with someone's good intentions toward the environment.. no matter how much you disagree with their philosophy.. I'd like to think you didn't mean it the way it sounds...

As an aside, while I hate to see those plank trails they make you walk on.. I'd like to think it's protecting that environment not only for future generations to enjoy but also protecting the wildlife and plantlife we presumably all enjoy looking at as well.

We have a responsibility to protect the environment...  :D

Edited by dgridley on --

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www.dotsurf.com
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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,8:24 pm QUOTE

Quote
I don't believe you can truly equate the term "nazi"  which was associated with the willful extermination of a race of people with someone's good intentions toward the environment.. no matter how much you disagree with their philosophy.. I'd like to think you didn't mean it the way it sounds...


I think the term was used to reflect the extreme "outside of norms" ideas regarding the use of the national resources. That how the coment Hinge Thunder was received by me and I agree with his perception. I also agree with Quinn that  Leave No Trace is welcome to post his/her ideas and I have the right to disagree and express my feelings. :wave
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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,8:36 pm QUOTE

Actually Eco-Fascist might be more accurate, as they want to dictate their extreme views on the rest of us.

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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,8:41 pm QUOTE

Quote (Quinn @ June 07 2002,7:15 pm)
I guess this all depends on how you wish to look at it. I remember when I was a kid looking at

Hey Quinn? How come if I quote a previous message, my message is displayed in this ugly small font, which is different than if I just did 'add-reply' which then displays in a larger, more readable font?

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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,9:02 pm QUOTE

Not sure what you are seeing but the fonts at my end are the same.

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Scout Offline
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    Posted: June 07 2002,10:02 pm QUOTE

I've read the post by Leave No Trace several times and I can't find anything that seems at all extreme. Certainly nothing to deserve calls of Nazi and Gestapo and Fascist.

Leave No Trace didn't advocate no camping rules, paving nature trails with concrete, banning hunting, keeping all people out of parks altogether, or any other extreme views. On the contrary, Leave No Trace's position is consistent with a belief in "good stewardship, along with reasonable use of the resource."

I wonder if we've just seen in reverse the jumping to conclusions that some environmentalists are guilty of when they hear about geocaching: that the hobby is filled with shovel-wielding treasure hunters massively invading pristine natural areas, trampling and digging and littering parks with McToys and scattered Tupperware.

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YardBoy Offline
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Posted: June 08 2002,4:42 am QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ June 07 2002,6:31 pm)
... driving an SUV right to the cache box.

hee, hee...that NaviCache is in Seneca Park, just north of the pond by the baseball diamond  :rotflmao

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mrmom Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,12:35 am QUOTE

Hey Yardboy, don't give out any hints.  Please encrypt them  ;)   Ha

At the picnic, did anyone notice the window stickers on my van?

An environmentalist is........................
A liberal is........................


Wasn't there a thread discussing that this might happen?
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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: June 09 2002,5:30 am QUOTE

Quote (Hinge Thunder @ June 07 2002,10:36 pm)
Actually Eco-Fascist might be more accurate, as they want to dictate their extreme views on the rest of us.

There is a difference between educating others on "responsible" use of our parks and natural resources, and being a "Eco-Fascist" or "Nazi" as you so politely put it.
Which by the way IMHO was uncalled for.

Fact is if it were not for these types of groups, this attitude (that is unfortunately shared by the masses these days) would mean Geocaching probably would not exist as there would be no parks left by now.

Yep!, I'm glad we have folks out there trying to tell the traveling Jackass not to flick his cigarette butt off into that dry brush while on the trail. Or, "Please don't tromp on this last known 'curous for cancerous' plant".

A point I'm sure the "trails....we don't need no stinking trails" type will miss.

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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,10:09 am QUOTE

Quote
There is a difference between educating others on "responsible" use of our parks and natural resources, and being a "Eco-Fascist" or "Nazi" as you so politely put it.


But this person/group wants you to stay on the prepared trails.  No going off the trail to place find a cache.  To quote them...

Quote
Keep in mind that one person going off-trail or bushwacking to a cache probably won't make that much impact, but it's the combined impact of many people heading to the same cache that can lead to well-defined "social trails" leading right to a cache.


I applaud stewardship of the land. Conservation of the land can be achieved without unreasonable restrictions. The people must be able to use the park, not just on the trails where the management has decided you should go. :nono
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Scout Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,10:23 am QUOTE

Firemedic said:
Quote
But this person/group wants you to stay on the prepared trails.  No going off the trail to place find a cache.  

The other poster did not forbid off-trail travel. The Leave No Trace principles do not, either.

"In popular areas:
Concentrate use on existing trails.
In pristine areas:
Disperse use to prevent the creation of trails."

How would you suggest rewording this LNT advice for use in a set of geocaching principles?

Edited by Scout on --

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Leave No Trace Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,10:52 am QUOTE

Interesting discussion for sure...

Heirloom - Any valuable or interesting posession handed down from generation to generation.

Why not take care of and protect the wonderful natural resources that we have? If not for ourselves, then for our children.

Leave No Trace is not about rules and regulations, it's about using good judgement and making good decisions with regards to minimizing our impact. We're not trying to tell people how or where to recreate, all we're trying to do is help keep our wild places wild. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, with regards to hiking on or off-trail, all we're suggesting is for folks to travel on the most durable surface available. Off-trail hiking is certainly acceptable and fun! But, there definitely are ways to do and not leave as much of a trace, e.g. when possible avoid wet areas, sensitive plants, moss, etc. Instead, stick to rock, forest duff, sand, gravle, snow, bare soil, and yes, trails.
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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,4:40 pm QUOTE

New Yorkers might want to check out the article in this link:

http://democratandchronicle.com/news/0610story6_news.shtml

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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,5:18 pm QUOTE

Quote (Firemedic @ June 10 2002,12:09 pm)
But this person/group wants you to stay on the prepared trails.  No going off the trail to place find a cache.  To quote them...

Quote
Keep in mind that one person going off-trail or bushwacking to a cache probably won't make that much impact, but it's the combined impact of many people heading to the same cache that can lead to well-defined "social trails" leading right to a cache.


I applaud stewardship of the land. Conservation of the land can be achieved without unreasonable restrictions. The people must be able to use the park, not just on the trails where the management has decided you should go. :nono

Actuall I (IMHO) find what you have quoted from them to be right on the money.  :^:

This is where a good majority of the responsibility actually lies with the cache owner. When placing a cache, if you have to break branches and bushwhack, or tromp through soft soil to hide it, then those searching for it will have to do the same. In other words, when placing a cache, take into consideration what impact those searching may have on the "specific" terrain in that area. This is why I also check my caches regularly. If I see signs of enviromental damage, I will pull the cache and replace it in another location.

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Hinge Thunder Offline
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    Posted: June 10 2002,5:31 pm QUOTE

Quote (dgridley @ June 10 2002,6:40 pm)
New Yorkers might want to check out the article in this link:

Only 10% of wildlife in NY is on protected land? What percentage of land in NY is protected? I am guessing about 10%? Hmmmm.... go figure!

IMO the article is tree-hugger propaganda. So alot of wildlife is on unprotected land. So what. They make it sound like all the wildlife on the privatly owned unprotected land are doomed or something. Like people are going bulldoze them all. Stupid! Personally, my property consists 1.6 acres of woods (looks like many of the parks we geocache in), which backs on more privatly owned woods. It might as well be protected, as I have lots of wildlife, and I am happy to leave them be. Except the squirrels..I am training my dog to bark at them. :) How much other land that is unprotected, but will remain pretty much untouched is there?

The tree-huggers would like to see 100% of the wildlife on protected land (ie 100% of the land protected).

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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,5:12 am QUOTE

If Hinge Thunder and I sound harsh with the Radical Environmentalists, I am sure it is because we have had some bad experiences with their activities.  When I hear someone spouting the key "talking points" that they use I automatically react and go offensive instead of defensive.  I realize that all groups are not like PETA and are not as extreme, but once you have been sucked into a discussion with the radical groups a few times and then they go for the jugular you get wary.

I am still suspicous of Leave No Trace but will back off a little until I am sure where they are coming from.  I feel it is groups like them that is causing some parks to restrict caches in their boundries.

Edited by Firemedic on --
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Firemedic Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,5:16 am QUOTE

Quote
At the picnic, did anyone notice the window stickers on my van?

An environmentalist is........................
A liberal is........................


Wasn't there a thread discussing that this might happen?

Yes, and my redneck looking pickup truck, with the blue firefighter light on top? It was the one with the "Vote Freedom First" and "I'm the NRA" stickers on the bumper.

What's your point? :rotflmao

Edited by Firemedic on --
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Morseman Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,7:38 am QUOTE

Speaking as a foreigner (i.e., not from the USA) the discussion reminds me of the debates about using chalk on rock faces that rage in the climbing fraternety every now and again.

The problems usually start when extreme behaviour, on either side, is used to justify a possition or proposal for rules/regulations/codes of conduct/opposition to whatever the proposals are.

In my opinion, as soon as someone puts out a 'best practice' suggestion, it falls foul of two problems a) those who have a legitimate reason to dissregard the suggstions, often a small number and b) the feeling that someone who has no authority to tell "me" what to do is trying to impose their point of view on "me".

In my opinion, the best thing to do if you dissagree with these suggestions is to start a committee to discuss them, make sure you are on it, and never come to a conclusion about what they should be.  It works in business.  :rotflmao

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Leave No Trace Offline
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    Posted: June 11 2002,9:46 am QUOTE

Leave No Trace is not a group of radical environmentalist, we're just a group of people interested in teaching recreationist how to minimize their impacts. We're not in any way trying to block access, regulate or tell people how, where or what to do. If anything, we're working towards the opposite. The more people that have the knowledge and skills to minimize their impacts, the less areas will be closed by land managers because of unacceptable overuse and abuse.

I would encourage the skeptics out there to log on to our website http://www.LNT.org or give us a call before making a judgement call about the Leave No Trace skills and ethics program.

Our mission is simple - To promote and inspire responsible outdoor recreation through education, research and partnerships.
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Rocky Offline
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    Posted: June 12 2002,8:20 am QUOTE

I think that some of the disagreement found in this thread can be explained by geography.  In the arid Western part of our country the effects of a large number of people traveling thru an area I’m sure are long lasting.  Here in the Northeast, where most us are, if we didn’t’ mow our lawns twice a week there would be “NO  TRACE” of our houses in a short time.  The growth here is so fast that the effects of a bushwhacking walk thru any area would be non-existent in a short period of time. I think some of our western neighbors might have to experience our environment and we theirs to communicate on a level with better understanding.
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mikechim Offline
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    Posted: June 12 2002,11:33 am QUOTE

I just quickly skimmed this thread (don't have time to read it all) and I will say this.  Whenever I'm in National Parks, monuments, etc.  I ALWAYS practice leave no trace policies.  And without sounding to much like an "eco Nazi" (I understand some groups go way overboard) I have come to the conclusion that about 80% of the people in National Parks (granted this really is a mute point for caching because they aren't in national parks or very fragile areas) but anyway 80% of the people shouldn't be there.  I mean just blatant disregard for the environment and everything around it, (I was going to rant on this anyway, before this topic) I've scene people picking plants right beside signs that say not to, people trampling in revegetation areas even walking over the no walking sign to get to it, people walking in and around historic ruins (like the ones I was just at, their in the side of a volcanic material that is extremely fragile and wears very easyily) and here is this idiot family tramping around in it, I've scene it time after time and can understand the anger that some of the extreme fringe conservation groups express (Leave no Trace, is definately not one of those groups).  They bring up good points that should be followed, like not tossing garbage out, etc. etc.  I will also say that I think geocachers as a whole are much more sensative to nature then hunters or other land users tend to be (I'm not saying all I know plenty of good consious hunters, but I've also had the woods behind my house, actually my families property filled with deer carcasses and bear bottles from careless hunters).

ANyway End rant,
These guys aren't the bad guys (if it was the Earth Liberation Front who likes to firebomb things I'd say go ahead and attack) these guys aren't that though.

Ok I"m really done this time
Mike

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