Forum: Questions And Answers About Geocaching
Topic: Your advice and opinions needed
started by: mikechim
Posted by mikechim on Nov. 15 2001,9:37 pmHey Everyone, looking for you 2 cents on something.
Working on a new multi-cache and some concerns have come up. Basically it's a knowledge based multiple choice cache. With approximately 5 locations (give or take). It is going to have around 20 or so false locations that people could potentially be sent to. When we (gamehenge rangers) first conceived of this idea our original intent was to put small tupperware containers at the false coordinated with a message inside indicating that the wrong coordinates had been choosen. We've spent time the last couple weeks locating spots. Here's the problem, the cache is located in Presque Isle State Park if it was on private property the thought of 30 some containers wouldn't be bad but in a state park (portions of which are national preserves, I don't think it's a good idea, obviously we are avoiding those areas, but still).
The problem with having nothing at the "false locations" is that I can almost garuantee 50% of cachers will head to false locations. So if somebody is on a cache like this would they realize if they couldn't find the cache because they choose poorly or not (especially if they were sure they had the right answer, screwing with people is fun). I can't elaborate on the questions, it would spoil the unveiling, but the questions CAN NOT be made easier so that this doesn't happen (it would ruin the theme of the cache). That being said "wrong" notices could be left at the false locations that people are most likely to go to (I also know which those will be). So if we only left the "wrong" indications at the places were people were most likely to go if they get it wrong we'd have 11 total caches + or - in play. Which to me still seems high.
So I need your guys's opinion "wrong" indicators or not (like I said they will be many heading the wrong way... we are kinda purposely screwing with people without the proper knowledge )
Second part of the question
To ask permission or not!
< Presque Isle State Park >
is a somewhat fragile environment in certain spots, like I said we are staying well clear of those spots but still. It's a bunch of beaches, has high visitition, has a network of trails, and does allow hunting in the park during certian times (mainly to control the deer). In addition a cache is already placed. I've have check all the regulations in the park map, info packet, and online and have found nothing indicating geocaches (obviously) but there is no notice to stay on the hiking trails (you can wander off while hunting) or anything like that.
However, this cache is pretty important to me (they all are but this one even more so) it will combine three things I love the topic of the cache (would have to kill you if I told you before it was unveiled ), Presque Isle (highly recomend all you NY's visit it) and of course geocaching. So I don't want it removed. I was all about sending a letter asking permission before I travel south and then upon my return in a month or so placing the cache (yes for reasons I can't go into right now it has to be placed around that time). The problem is I have scene other cachers indicating that it took months, literally months for permission because of all the red tape and the fact that no one (in power) wanted to be the one to OK it (they didn't have a problem with it persay and probably would have left it alone if they found it). So to all you NY letchworth (spelling?) cache placers out there and other's who have placed in state parks. Do I need permission and Did you get permission?
So my three questions, most important first (to sum up in case I lost you in all those ramblings, sleep is a luxury I've been missing as of late)
1) "Wrong" answer locations?
2) permission and did you get it.
Ok I'm done ramblin
Looking forward to hearing your opinions on this
Posted by Guest on Nov. 16 2001,5:04 amBriefly for now ( getting ready to leave for work), I can see your dilemna about the "wrong location marker" type cache. Bad point I see is that could be seen as cluttering the park with "abandoned personal items" (the exact thing National Parks regulate Geocaching under). Good point in my opinion is it keeps cache seekers from needlessly trampling an area when they arrive as it points out to the that they are in fact, not where they should be.
On the get permission part, I am of the group that says "it is easier to ask forgiveness, than to get permission". So if there is no specific park regulation against such a thing I probably would not ask. I would be sure to place CLEAR notice in the cache listing, that the cache is NOT located in any fragile area of the park where off trail hiking is prohibited.
Hard to give better ideas on how to handle it due to the current Top Secret status
Posted by Scout on Nov. 16 2001,8:37 amBasically, I think you're damned if you do, damned if you don't (on both questions, really).
If your real caches are guaranteed to be easy to find, given you are at the right waypoint, maybe you don't need "wrong" notices at all. If people get to the spot and the cache isn't where it obviously is supposed to be, they know they are at the wrong spot.
If you must leave "wrong" notices, make them small and inconspicuous to anyone who doesn't know what they're looking for.
As for getting permission, if you try, you'll run into a lot of running around and red tape. If you don't, you run the risk of upsetting the land managers. It's a case by case call. Are there known regulations against it? Have similar issues come up before? What other uses of the park are already established? etc.
Posted by Quinn on Nov. 16 2001,11:29 amI agree with scout in a way...
I feel that if you have these "Dummy" caches (caches that are phantoms) as a way of throwing a off a cacher you might run into the problem of people not knowing if they are in the wrong place or if they just dont have an accurate coordinate, thus this could cause people to trample areas that there really isn't anything. You may wish to place some sort of Tiny container like say an altoids box with a note in it saying "wrong Location" with the correct location coordinate posted in it, this way they will know they are at the wrong spot and need to move on. The altoids container is small enough where it can't be a harm to the area also.
As for asking a park for permission I agree with PC Medic on this one,. As long as you see the park laws and rules as not being in violation then I feel it's better to stay well enough away from officials who may be forced to give an answer, this could and most likely will not go your way as many people do not like to say "sure go ahead" in fear that some sort of law suit will follow if someone trips or gets a scratch as a result of this being allowed. Kinda like the schultz aspect..."I know nothing...Nothing!!!
Posted by mikechim on Nov. 17 2001,3:44 pmThanks guys,
I'm still not positive what I'm going to do with the "phantom cache" areas, however, I am just going to place the cache instead of running through all the redtape, I've heard other stories about the difficulty of doing that and it's good to see I'm not the only one whose heard that.
I hadn't considered the fact that cachers would be trampling around looking for the cache. So I figure what I'll probably end up doing is putting out small "wrong location" caches at the places that I know a lot of the people will head to. And just not put anything at the others. Basically there are three types of people who could potentially try this cache (those with the right info, those who think their right, and those with no clue). I doubt the no clue crowd will try but I know I'm gonna get people who think they know it and are wrong. So for them I'll probably leave the little phantom caches. Unfortunately I can't make it so that the caches are easily seen as Presque Isle is a high use park and they'd definately get plundered.
Posted by Quinn on Nov. 17 2001,6:23 pmYour idea does seem very interesting and I would like to hear how it works out, so be sure to keep us updated here on what happens. I wish you luck and I am certain that no matter how you set it up that it will be fun for all.
Posted by mikechim on Dec. 13 2001,5:50 amIt's coming, soon very soon....
Posted by mikechim on Feb. 12 2002,12:25 amOK so maybe it wasn't coming so soon, but I finally got it out. 4 months (on and off) of planning (2 months late) and $30 over budget, it's finally out. Or at least most of it, I haven't added the "phantom cache" areas yet. Still looking for a good container (I don't feel like buying 8 things of altoids the cost is already to high, even those little cheap plastic containers are to expensive). ANyway those will get out sooner or later, but the important thing is that it's ready to go. I honestly believe that it is well worth a drive from Cleveland, Pittsburgh, or Buffalo or maybe even a bit further away.
Check it out
< The Fellowship of the Ring >
PS Since I like you guys and since it would be quit a drive for you I'll say this. It can be done without reading the book but your in for a frustrating cache experience unless your really lucky. So grab a copy of the book and enjoy (come spring and the nice weather you should be ready to go). Besides Tolkien's the best author and it's the greatest book of the 20th century (says poll after poll after poll).
I read the trilogy 2X a year, if you haven't read it yet your doing yourself a great diservice (have I convinced any of you to read it yet , if not at least go listen to some phish! )
Posted by Morseman on Feb. 12 2002,2:20 am
Little Known Facts Nobody Much Cares About, Volume 2306.*
Tolkien got much of his inspiration for the Lord of the Rings books whilst he lived in Birmingham (that's the one in the UK, by the way ) and there are a couple of landmarks, near to where I was born and brought up, which are said to be the models for some of the buildings described in Middle Earth.
I was thinking about placing a cache, but the area is now, according to reports in a Birmingham newspaper, the haunt of various lowlifes and not a place to go alone!
(* Quote from a UK radio comedy programme "I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again", circa 1970s/80s)
Posted by Quinn on Feb. 12 2002,6:57 amOK...thats it! I am going to give this cache a shot. I'll buy the book today and read it, then when I take a week off pretty soon to head to VA Beach I will hit this one on my way. Gimpy...if you were any type of "Power Cacher" you would come with me.
Posted by dgridley on Feb. 12 2002,3:15 pmI've got the whole LOTR Trilogy in .pdf format if anyone's interested.. loved the movie (except for the abrupt ending) and think it's great that it got 13 nominations for the Oscar. However,
That said, Quinn, ... you better take ME along
Posted by dgridley on Feb. 12 2002,3:18 pmBTW- you might try marking phantom caches with an unobtrusive strip of red cloth tied to a bush or something...
Posted by mikechim on Feb. 12 2002,4:48 pm
Someday I hope to travel over your way and check out all Tolkien's old haunts. The farm where he grew up (I believe it was there, maybe just somewhere he used to hang out alot, haven't checked on it for years), the countryside he spent time in, maybe even some of the places he fought at (supposedly he first visualized Middle earth in the war trenches). Being an avid hiker and backpacker I also plan on hitting New Zealand and following many of the scenes from the movie as well. I'll have to add this place to my list also. Maybe in 5 years or so when I can actually head over it will be cleaned up a bit.
Posted by mikechim on Feb. 12 2002,5:16 pm
Great, hope you enjoy the book. After reading it you should know where my sig comes from. Unfortunately were not really on the way to VA beach, but hey it's not that far away anyway. All of you should come out, hit the Erie caches and visit. I still have to make it out your way for some of the infamous Navicache caches.
Posted by mikechim on Feb. 12 2002,5:39 pm
The trilogy would make a pretty good trade item. I had mixed reviews on the movie. The first time I saw it I was disapointed. It was no where near as bad as the animated Bashki version but I thought there was a lot of unnecessary changes (that didn't save time; I understood cutting of some characters like Bombadil and Glorfindel) but things were just changed for no real reason. (I won't rant on about it too much here, I was really disapointed by Elrond, some of the changes to Aragorn's character, Galadriel, and Lothlorien). I also thought it was somewhat choppy (but I guess Jackson was forced to cut an extra 1/2 or 45 min from the cut he wanted).
Anyway I saw it a second time,this time going in there already knowing what I didn't like and trying to see it from the viewpoint of a non Tolkien semischolar/purist (aka geek) and really liked the movie. So as a Tolkien adaptation I give it around a 6, as a movie a 9.
Yeah I also don't see it winning best picture, it's been up for tons of awards in the past and never walked away with any. I do think the theme has a lot to do with it, people here fantasy and instantly they think the Dungeons and Dragons (no offense to anyone who plays or has played it, I'm a big fan of the computer RPG) instead of realizing how truly deep of a world (not just story but world) Tolkien created. I've read tons of epic fantasy lately looking for something that comes close (Jordan, Feist, Goodkind, Martin, Salvatorie, etc) and have yet to find it.
Quinn would probably do well to bring you along, I tried the keep the questions easy enough that you can get them after one reading, however if you've scene the movie as well it could mix things up a little. I got two of my friends to read the Fellowship (they both loved it and have bought the trilogy, we've spent a lot of time at the local tavern discussing it). Anyway they both got 7 out of the 8 correct. But they were really into it too. So a Tolkien expert (like I'm assuming you are, would come in handy).
Besides with Erie's relatively small caching population I need people from outside the area to hit it
That's actually why I choose Presque Isle, it seems to pull outside cachers better, the other caches I've place (while receiving good reviews) haven't gotten that many cachers.
Posted by dgridley on Feb. 14 2002,12:17 amI wouldn't call myself an expert.. more of an ardent admirer of the work. Looking forward to seeing the DVD version of this.. I've seen a few links to the VCD version of the movie online but none working.
As a movie, it was tops (except for the ending).. I'd forgotten it was part of a trilogy and expected to see more resolved. At my age, I may never live to see the other two parts! Waiting for Dinotopia and Matrix II as well.
Posted by dgridley on Feb. 14 2002,12:21 amBTW- Quinn.. Erie is in the other direction from VA. Beach...
Posted by mikechim on April 13 2002,10:50 amWe'll figure I'd let everyone know about another(I guess this thread's titled should be changed to Tolkien and fantasy caches or something) addition.
The Tolkien Quilt Cache,
This is a collaboration between DXchallenged and myself and invovles Tolkien caches and one of DX's famous quilts.
There will be 4 quilt sqaures (actually there already is 4 quilt squares, DX made them and they just arrived at my house, they look great!).
Anyway one quilt square will be placed in each of the three LOTR caches that I'll be putting out and the 4th will be placed in DX's Hobbit cache. If you complete all 4 caches and sign all four corners you get credit for the "Tolkien Quilt Cache" and maybe even a little bonus. I should have already put it out there and submitted the cache page.... but it's been way to nice out to sit at a computer (forgive me if I'm rambling, but since it's been nice I finally came out of hibernation and hit the town last night..... it was a long night ).