Forum: Using The Website
Topic: Open Log?
started by: welch

Posted by welch on Mar. 01 2004,4:41 pm
I just today noticed

"Open Log?
Would you like to give other
caching sites permission to
use or list your log entry?"

Is this new? Who would these non-commerical sites be? and what sort of thing would they use it for?? :withstupid

Posted by PC Medic on Mar. 02 2004,7:41 am
We (Navicache) have for some time offered our database info via XML file download and will soon offer it via other methods. These files include a 'Terms Of Use' clause within the header stating how this data may be used.

To answer your question, Yes this checkbox is new. We decided that while we promote an open caching community, there are some that for what ever reason may not want their data used outside the Navicache site. This new checkbox that is available both when submitting a new cache or making a log entry was added to provide individuals a way to indicate their preference.

Please understand that this function does not at this time prevent the data from being retrieved within the file, it simply sets a flag to indicate your preference to the party retrieving the data.

Posted by welch on Mar. 02 2004,5:50 pm
Is this a now and into the future thing?
Or is there a need to go back to all previous material and check a bunch of boxes??

Not that it will affect anything (the way im understanding it).

Posted by PC Medic on Mar. 02 2004,8:33 pm
The default was/is "No", you now have the option to change it if you like. Do you need to?, probably not
Posted by GeoRockers on Mar. 04 2004,6:34 pm
Greetings welch!

Quote (welch @ Mar. 01 2004,3:41 pm)
Who would these non-commerical sites be?


A non-commercial site could be your local or regional caching group. :)


George

Posted by Renegade Knight on Mar. 08 2004,9:10 pm
I don't have a problem with my "information" being used for stats, or sites like buxleys maps etc.  I do have a huge problem with a cache being listed on any other site.  As for logs I've always figureed they were allready on the net and were pretty much accessable.  However a simple link to this site where my log resides is where things should end up at in my opinion.  

This entire concept interests me though and I'd like to track it.

Posted by eigengott on Mar. 09 2004,3:47 pm
Quote (PC Medic @ Mar. 02 2004,10:33 pm)
The default was/is "No"

Do i understand right, that all old entries (before this new option was introduced) have the flag set to "no"?

I would consider this as a "close" of the existing database. Even though you don't enforce/use that flag *yet*... :(

Posted by GeoRockers on Mar. 09 2004,9:30 pm
Greetings to All!

Quote (Renegade Knight @ Mar. 08 2004,8:10 pm)
I don't have a problem with my "information" being used for stats, or sites like buxleys maps etc.  I do have a huge problem with a cache being listed on any other site.


You are in good company.  Your sentiment has been expressed by those who have found their cache(s) listed without their permission.


Quote (eigengott @ Mar. 09 2004,2:47 pm)
Do i understand right, that all old entries (before this new option was introduced) have the flag set to "no"?


You are correct, the default setting is "no".

The most restrictive flag was chosen as the default in order to prevent more suprises like the one mentioned above.


Quote (eigengott @ Mar. 09 2004,2:47 pm)
I would consider this as a "close" of the existing database. Even though you don't enforce/use that flag *yet*...


I disagree.  The database is still accessible. :)

It is the cache owner or log author that must explictly give their permission for their cache information/log to be used for non-commercial or unrestricted use.

Imagine if the default setting was "yes, unrestricted".

How would you feel if you found your cache information/log entry included in the "Low cost family fun" disc, with a retail cost of $30?

Personally, I believe the "opt-in" philosophy is better than the "opt-out" philosophy...  

I should point out that my point of view may be prejudiced by my experience with my yahoo e-mail box... it's full of spam because I missed one of the three pages to "opt-out".  :rolleyes


Quote (Renegade Knight @ Mar. 08 2004,8:10 pm)
As for logs I've always figureed they were allready on the net and were pretty much accessable


As is the cache information, otherwise, no one would be able to post a find! :p



George

Posted by welch on Mar. 09 2004,9:56 pm
Quote (GeoRockers @ Mar. 09 2004,10:30 pm)
Quote (Renegade Knight @ Mar. 08 2004,8:10 pm)
I don't have a problem with my "information" being used for stats, or sites like buxleys maps etc.  I do have a huge problem with a cache being listed on any other site.


You are in good company.  Your sentiment has been expressed by those who have found their cache(s) listed without their permission.

Can you explain this more? (or will that cause more problems?)
*Whole* cache listings were being 'copied', or just part(s) of info??

Posted by GeoRockers on Mar. 10 2004,9:27 am
Greetings to All!

Quote (welch @ Mar. 09 2004,8:56 pm)
Quote (GeoRockers @ Mar. 09 2004,10:30 pm)
Quote (Renegade Knight @ Mar. 08 2004,8:10 pm)
I don't have a problem with my "information" being used for stats, or sites like buxleys maps etc.  I do have a huge problem with a cache being listed on any other site.


You are in good company.  Your sentiment has been expressed by those who have found their cache(s) listed without their permission.

Can you explain this more? (or will that cause more problems?)
*Whole* cache listings were being 'copied', or just part(s) of info??


NaviCache supports an open caching environment by providing easy access to the entire cache/logs database. :)

An unfortunate incident occurred last year, which was the result of a mistake I made by writing a 'loose' terms of use statement, combined with a minor oversight by a person who downloaded the entire cache/log database, put it on the web, and forgot to include source=NaviCache.

This unfortunate sequence of events made it appear as if the data was stolen.

The result was numerous e-mail by concerned cachers informing us that another site stole their cache information, along with the logs, and that the cacher had not given his/her/their permission for the cache to be listed at that site.

The compromise (delayed by my recovery from an accident) was the addition of the 'open cache' and 'open log' entries and the situation where the cache owner/log author must explicitly declare the cache information/log entry as open for non-commercial use or open for unrestricted use.



George

Posted by welch on Mar. 10 2004,4:01 pm
Ok. More questions:
How does this work if everyone just leaves it at the default 'No'. Does this mean that those xml files have nothing in them? Or just info from before the choice was added?(or did the feature add a retro 'No' to everything?)  
Or is there just more stuff in the files telling what parts are no and which are yes?  ???


Also, what is used to decide if the use is commercial or not? and who does this?



Posted by PC Medic on Mar. 10 2004,4:23 pm
Even with the flag defaulted to 'No', all the caches/logs remain available via the XML interface just as they have been. The difference is that the resulting file now contains additional information including the new flag to tell the recieving party which cache owners agree to let them use their cache listing or logs.

Some examples of commercial use would be a site which required a subscription fee in order to obtain/view any of the data derived from this file or purchase of a CD which included any or all of this data.



Posted by eigengott on Mar. 11 2004,2:01 am
Quote (PC Medic @ Mar. 11 2004,12:23 am)
The difference is that the resulting file now contains additional information including the new flag to tell the recieving party which cache owners agree to let them use their cache listing or logs.

What if the receiving party ignores the new flag and uses all entries, even those wich (now) clearly say "no"? Will you close down the XML feed on them?
Posted by GeoRockers on Mar. 12 2004,12:03 am
Greetings to All!


Quote (welch @ Mar. 10 2004,3:01 pm)
Ok. More questions:


We're always happy to answer questions. :)


Quote (welch @ Mar. 10 2004,3:01 pm)
How does this work if everyone just leaves it at the default 'No'. Does this mean that those xml files have nothing in them? Or just info from before the choice was added?(or did the feature add a retro 'No' to everything?)  
Or is there just more stuff in the files telling what parts are no and which are yes?  ???


The XML file will, at a minimum, contain the Document Type Definition (DTD), Terms of Use, disclaimer, and update history, along with the cache information (if any) and log entries (if any).

open_cache and open_log (the stuff) was added to DTD.

open_cache and open_log signifies which caches/logs are not open (no), open for non-commercial use (non_commercial_use_only), or open for any use (unrestricted).

And, yes, you could say that the open_cache/open_log feature added a retroactive 'No' to everything.

Here is a sample of the XML data:

Code Sample

<!DOCTYPE CACHEDATA[
  <!ELEMENT CACHEDATA (CacheDetails*, LogEntry*)>
     <!ELEMENT CacheDetails (#PCDATA)>
        <!ATTLIST CacheDetails
           source            CDATA #REQUIRED
           cache_id          CDATA #REQUIRED
           waypoint          CDATA #REQUIRED
           country_code      CDATA #REQUIRED
           state             CDATA #REQUIRED
           city              CDATA #REQUIRED
           name              CDATA #REQUIRED
           user_name         CDATA #REQUIRED
           hidden_date       CDATA #REQUIRED
           modified_datetime CDATA #REQUIRED
           latitude          CDATA #REQUIRED
           longitude         CDATA #REQUIRED
           difficulty        CDATA #REQUIRED
           terrain           CDATA #REQUIRED
           retired           ( no | yes | deleted | other ) #REQUIRED
           cache_type        ( unknown | normal | multi-part | virtual |
                               moving_travelling | event ) #REQUIRED
           cache_size        ( unknown | micro | normal | large |
                               virtual ) #REQUIRED
           open_cache        ( no | non_commercial_use_only | unrestricted ) #REQUIRED

           handicapped       ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
           water             ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
           restrooms         ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
           parking_lot       ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
           pets              ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
           fees              ( no | yes | unknown ) #REQUIRED
         
           comments          CDATA #REQUIRED
           description       CDATA #REQUIRED

           cluetitle1        CDATA #REQUIRED
           cluetitle2        CDATA #REQUIRED
           cluetitle3        CDATA #REQUIRED
           cluetitle4        CDATA #REQUIRED
           cluetitle5        CDATA #REQUIRED

           clue1             CDATA #REQUIRED
           clue2             CDATA #REQUIRED
           clue3             CDATA #REQUIRED
           clue4             CDATA #REQUIRED
           clue5             CDATA #REQUIRED

           pictitle1         CDATA #REQUIRED
           pictitle2         CDATA #REQUIRED
           pictitle3         CDATA #REQUIRED

           pic1              CDATA #REQUIRED
           pic2              CDATA #REQUIRED
           pic3              CDATA #REQUIRED
        >

     <!ELEMENT LogEntry (#PCDATA)>
        <!ATTLIST LogEntry
           source                                         CDATA #REQUIRED
           country_code                                   CDATA #REQUIRED
           cache_id                                       CDATA #REQUIRED
           waypoint                                       CDATA #REQUIRED
           difficulty        CDATA #REQUIRED
           terrain           CDATA #REQUIRED
           user_name                                      CDATA #REQUIRED
           log_date                                       CDATA #REQUIRED
           added_modified_datetime                        CDATA #REQUIRED
           open_log         ( no | non_commercial_use_only | unrestricted ) #REQUIRED
           log_type         (found | notfound | note | deleted) #REQUIRED
           log_entry                                      CDATA #REQUIRED
        >
]>


<CACHEDATA>
  <CacheDetails source='NaviCache'
         cache_id='478'
         waypoint='N001DE'
         country_code='US'
         state='CA'
         city='Sacramento'
         name='Men In Black'
         user_name='GeoRockers'
         hidden_date='2001-10-14'
         modified_datetime='2004-02-17 05:14:58'
         latitude='38.4739666666667'
         longitude='-121.5072'
         difficulty='2.0'
         terrain='1.5'
         retired='no'
         cache_type='normal'
         cache_size='normal'
         handicapped='no'
         water='no'
         restrooms='no'
         parking_lot='yes'
         pets='yes'
         fees='no'
         open_cache='non_commercial_use_only'
         comments='eTrex coordinates:
<br>
<br>N 38.28.443  W 121.30.433
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>Watch out for aliens disguised as <B>cachers</b>, bicyclists, joggers, fishermen, fisherwomen, arbors, flora, and fauna.'
         description='The terrain can vary from a 1.5 to a 3, depending upon your approach.
<br>
<br>Beware of flashing lights... you may not remember that you have been here before.
<br>
<br>The cache dimensions are 5"x12"x7".
<br>
<br>Original contents:
<br><UL>
<br>
<br><LI> Men In Black(VHS)
<br><LI> Black silk tie
<br><LI> pair of black sunglasses
<br><LI> Invasion DVD (from Movie Magic)
<br><LI> War of the Worlds paper back book
<br><LI> Green UFO Yo-Yo
<br><LI> Lady Bug
<br><LI> Alien head antenna ball
<br><LI> Key's to alien space craft key chain(it may work!)
<br><LI> 2 dragon files
<br><LI> alien pencil
<br><LI> glow ring
<br><LI> log book
<br><LI> 2 pens
<br><LI> <B>A SUPRISE!</b>
<br></ul>
<br>
<br>Caching rules and regulations prevented the inclusion of the Series IV De-atomizer and Noisy Cricket.;)
<br>
<br>Have fun with this cache, but please do not accept rides from the aliens!
<br>
<br><EMBED hidden=true src=http://www.geocities.com/georockers/midi/mib.mid autostart='true'></embed>'

         cluetitle1='Do you really need this?'
         clue1='This happened to K.'
         cluetitle2=''
         clue2=''
         cluetitle3=''
         clue3=''
         cluetitle4=''
         clue4=''
         cluetitle5=''
         clue5=''
         pictitle1=''
         pic1=''
         pictitle2=''
         pic2=''
         pictitle3=''
         pic3=''           >
  </CacheDetails>


  <LogEntry source='NaviCache'
            country_code='US'
            cache_id='478'
            waypoint='N001DE'
            difficulty='2.0'
            terrain='1.5'
            user_name='GeoRockers'
            log_date='2004-02-17'
            added_modified_datetime='2004-02-17 04:26:02'
            open_log='non_commercial_use_only'
            log_type='note'
            log_entry='Test of open access logs. :)
[Modified 2004-02-17 04:26:02]
'  >
  </LogEntry>

</CACHEDATA>




This cache and log were declared as open for non-commercial use only.


Quote (PC Medic @ Mar. 10 2004,3:23 pm)
Even with the flag defaulted to 'No', all the caches/logs remain available via the XML interface just as they have been.


All the caches and logs also remain available via the HTML interface (web browser), otherwise, no one would be able to view the cache information/logs or log a find. :p


Quote (eigengott @ Mar. 11 2004,1:01 am)
What if the receiving party ignores the new flag and uses all entries, even those wich (now) clearly say "no"? Will you close down the XML feed on them?


If a polite e-mail does not stop a violation of the Terms of Use, then we'll turn < PC Medic > loose on them!  :grinnin


George

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