Forum: Using The Website
Topic: Moving caches
started by: Scout

Posted by Scout on Aug. 21 2003,2:54 pm
Are moving caches allowed? That is, caches whose published coordinates will change periodically? I have an idea for a cache that could benefit from this.
Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 21 2003,4:15 pm
Generally NO. But if you could PM me or < Email Us > with some more specifics of what you had in mind, we can take a look and let you know for sure.
Posted by Scout on Aug. 21 2003,5:49 pm
I want to create a series of caches, dozens of them. The caches will be independently hunted, so a multi-cache doesn't apply. Each cache will have a short life span, so creating and archiving dozens of caches in a short time would just clutter the database. A moveable cache would fit the bill, but not if the Web site is unable to refresh its search results, maps, etc., each time the cache moves.
Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 21 2003,8:31 pm
You say each will have a "short life span", but then mention that the site would need to refresh its search results, maps, etc., each time the cache moves. Is it that the cache will have a short life, or that each location will have a short life?
If you do not want to give detail here to prevent spoiling (or giving up) the idea, I understand and that is why I recommended PM or emailing us.
refreshing search results and maps are probably not an issue but what is the "etc." part?

Posted by Scout on Aug. 21 2003,9:21 pm
You could think of this as a single cache that moves periodically or as a series of related, though different caches, each in a new location. When one expires, a new one appears to take its place.

If I use only a single Navicache cache page for all of them, the listed coordinates will have to change peridically. That means the displayed map and the map links have to change also. (And maybe other things I don't know about -- which I lumped into etc. in my earlier post.)

If I use separate Navicache cache pages for each of them, I'll be creating lots of cache pages and each one will be archived soon after I create it.

Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 22 2003,8:27 am
Well obviously seperate entries would be a problem because as you said it would create database clutter. Not to mention confusion for those doing a search from the search page, as the name is still the same and would result in multiple hits. (One reason why moving caches can be an issue).

As for the maps and map links this is not a (BIG) issue as when an owner "Edits" a cache listing, if you enter new coordinates (and clears the ZIP Code) field, it is automatically queued for new map generation (this may be instant or take up to 1 hour however for the new locally generated map to appear.) However all external maps should be immediate as they are generated from te new coordinates when the querry is sent.

Now I am still not saying it would be approved but, the concerns  you point out so far should not be a problem.

I assume the finder would be required after moving to email you with the new coordinates? This would be needed as only the cache owner may edit the listing to trigger the new maps.
Other issues (and the main concern with "moving caches" is that often the finders may not log the new coordinate info for several days thereby leaving others to go searching a cache no longer at the listed coordinates.



Posted by Scout on Aug. 22 2003,11:40 am
OK, here's the idea. I'm thinking of creating a cache called "FTF Poker." I would shuffle a deck of playing cards. One by one, I would hide a card somewhere in the area and publish its coordinates on Navicache.

The FTF (first to find) would get to keep the card. Everyone else is out of luck. To get credit, the finder would have to tell me via email the suit and rank of the card, as well as log his find on Navicache to notify everyone else that the card is no longer there. If no one reports the find after some short time period, the card "expires" and can no longer be hunted (in case it's plundered or otherwise disappears).

When the first card is found, I'll hide another in some other location. Same rules as before.

No player can accumulate more than five cards. To get credit for a sixth find, the person must first "discard" one of his cards by hiding it himself. He'll notify me of its new location and I'll update the Navicache listing for its location. Someone else can then be FTF for that rehidden card and the first player is free to find another card.

When all the cards have been hidden and found, the player with the best poker hand "wins".  I haven't figured out what the prize should be yet. ;-)

Thoughts, anyone?

Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 22 2003,3:40 pm
Seems to be an interesting concept and I am interested to see what others think.

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When the first card is found, I'll hide another in some other location. Same rules as before.

Same cache name and listing, just updating coordinates and description I assume?


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No player can accumulate more than five cards. To get credit for a sixth find, the person must first "discard" one of his cards by hiding it himself. He'll notify me of its new location and I'll update the Navicache listing for its location. Someone else can then be FTF for that rehidden card and the first player is free to find another card.

To prevent "Card Cheats" would you be going out to verify they had actually 'discarded' the sixth card? (this would sure keep you busy :grinnin  ). And if so, would that not limit those that participate to those local to your area?

Posted by Scout on Aug. 22 2003,3:57 pm
Quote
Same cache name and listing, just updating coordinates and description I assume?

Yes.

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To prevent "Card Cheats" would you be going out to verify they had actually 'discarded' the sixth card?


No. They won't get credit for another card until their discarded card is found and logged by another player.

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And if so, would that not limit those that participate to those local to your area?

Yes, participation is limited to my area. However, the concept could easily be extended to any number of areas. Shuffle two or three decks, have two or three "dealers", and play a game in two or three areas simultaneously. Add decks and dealers as desired.

Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 23 2003,1:22 pm
Do you see in your plans any issue with the delay in the Navicache map update (up to 1 hr). All external map queries are updated immediately by the way.
Posted by Scout on Aug. 23 2003,3:50 pm
Quote (PC Medic @ Aug. 23 2003,2:22 pm)
Do you see in your plans any issue with the delay in the Navicache map update (up to 1 hr).

No. That should be quick enough.
Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 23 2003,5:48 pm
One problem with 'moving caches (IMHO) is that if several folks set out in search on the same day, those arriving after the 'FTF' cacher can waste considerable time bush-whacking an area in search of something that no longer exists. Needless to say this would be quite frustrating, not to mention that it may lead to unnecessary  trampling of an area by those who were not sure if they were too late or just having a hard time finding it. Perhaps removing the card grom a small container leaving behind a "Sorry, Too Late" :grinnin  type message would be better. At least then they would know they were in the right area and stop looking.

Other than that, I think the listing should clearly state that the 'First To Find' would be removing the cache, and also include clear instructions that this individual should contact you within a specified period after the find. This would help in preventing wasted trips by others to the field. I think it would also serve as fair warning to others that may consider searching for it, that may arrive only to find they are too late.



Posted by Scout on Aug. 23 2003,6:49 pm
Yes, the instructions would indicate that the "cache" won't be there anymore if you are not first to find. And the instructions will also state that the card will be in plain site, so no trashing of the area will be needed to find it. Players will know just where to look.

One of the things about this setup that appeals to me is how environmentally friendly it is. Short lifespan for the cache. No steady stream of visitors, creating social trails and possibly litter. Nothing left behind (after FTF).

Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 23 2003,7:52 pm
Quote (Scout @ Aug. 23 2003,8:49 pm)
the instructions will also state that the card will be in plain site, so no trashing of the area will be needed to find it. Players will know just where to look.

Hmm, you do not see any risk to cache being "plundered" by those who do not know why this stray playing card is there??

In any case, go ahead and we will see how this works out.

Posted by Scout on Aug. 23 2003,10:11 pm
Quote (PC Medic @ Aug. 23 2003,8:52 pm)
Hmm, you do not see any risk to cache being "plundered" by those who do not know why this stray playing card is there??

Plain sight was too strong a description. The cards will be visible without having to turn over any rocks or brush away any branches or grass. But, they will be placed in non-obvious places, so that they ought to last the day or two needed for the first-to-find to get there. More important, anyone who comes after will be able to quickly tell that they are late, so they don't disturb the site looking for something that isn't there.

Can the card be plundered? Sure. Can a player dig up the place anyway? Sure. But this is the case with EVERY physical cache now, and we live with that. Sooner or later, every cache left in the wild has gone missing or will eventually go missing. Even if the owner archives the cache, then retrieves it, there's no guarantee that someone who downloaded the coordinates earlier won't go looking for it. I'm confident that caches that are only out there for a day or two pose less risk to the environment than caches left out indefinitely.

Posted by Scout on Aug. 23 2003,10:12 pm
Quote (PC Medic @ Aug. 23 2003,8:52 pm)
In any case, go ahead and we will see how this works out.

Thanks. Now, I need to propose it on my local area geocaching forum to see if anyone is interested in playing. ;-)
Posted by PC Medic on Aug. 24 2003,4:55 am
By the way, local maps also update immediately (just as the three esternal ones do). What I thought was a problem in our script, turns out to be in Internet Explorer. It caches the map page on my local computer so unless I left the site and came back or clicked "Refresh" it was not displaying the new map after making the coordinate change during testing.

Can you imagine that. I mean a bug in IE, who would have ever figured!?   :grinnin



Posted by Team Bohica on Sep. 09 2003,9:36 am
Quote (PC Medic @ Aug. 23 2003,7:48 pm)
One problem with 'moving caches (IMHO) is that if several folks set out in search on the same day, those arriving after the 'FTF' cacher can waste considerable time bush-whacking an area in search of something that no longer exists. Needless to say this would be quite frustrating, not to mention that it may lead to unnecessary  trampling of an area by those who were not sure if they were too late or just having a hard time finding it. Perhaps removing the card grom a small container leaving behind a "Sorry, Too Late" :grinnin  type message would be better. At least then they would know they were in the right area and stop looking.

I have a moving cache here in Austin. Look up the 'Rock that Rolls' on the other site. I had tried to list it here first but it was never approved. It's actually quite the local celebrity. It has moved as many as 7 times in a day. Your concern is somewhat valid but not quite. It is designed as an 'urban' cache and fits in almost anywhere in this area. Seeing as it's placed in flower beds, by the side of the road, and under mailboxes trampling isn't really a problem. Those areas are usually sidewalked or paved over.
As for the getting there and looking when it's already been snagged, I haven't heard any real complaints in over 100 moves. Yeah, it's possible and it does happen. The lookers know it's a possibility when they head out after it. That's part of the fun. I have even gone hunting for it and spent an hour in a creekbed before giving up and discovering it had been taken just 10 minutes before. It happens, you get over it.
One other concern was 'innappropriate' placements. This has also not been a problem. I've never seen a placement that didn't work.

The joy of this kind of cache is that it can be placed almost anywhere. Also the thrill of knowing that literally hundreds of people look right at it and don't know. My favorite placement was in a planter of a movie theater on opening night of MatrxII. I watched a muggle sitting right next to it and even bump it but he had no clue. I about laughed my ass off.

I never expected the Rock to be as successful as it is but am glad the locals like going after it. Last time I checked there were 40 people watching it.

I'd say let Scout try his idea. If it doesn't work I know he's smart enough to kill it off.

Tony

Posted by PC Medic on Sep. 09 2003,3:22 pm
Quote (Team Bohica @ Sep. 09 2003,11:36 am)
Quote
I'd say let Scout try his idea. If it doesn't work I know he's smart enough to kill it off.

He has already been given the go ahead.  :thumbs-up
Posted by Scout on Sep. 09 2003,6:34 pm
Quote (PC Medic @ Sep. 09 2003,4:22 pm)
He has already been given the go ahead.

Thanks. I know. I suggested the idea on the TexasGeocaching.com forum and only one person responded with interest. I just might still do it, but no one's waiting so there's no hurry.
Posted by Scout on Jan. 09 2004,9:44 am
OK, scratch almost everything above this in this thread.

Thanks, Team Bohica for referencing "The Rock that Rolls." It changed my concept of how this should work a lot. The result is quite different than what I was proposing at first. Because my local geocaching area didn't show much interest in GeoPoker, I offered it to the CentralTexasGeocachers, where Team Bohica's moving cache is such a hit. And, now we've got the first GeoPoker game going in Austin.

Check out < http://poker.gpsgames.org > for more details. If you are interested in setting up a GeoPoker game in your own area, let me know.

Posted by Scout on Jan. 26 2004,10:14 am
GeoPoker is now officially an international game. We have our first game started in Portugal. Before, we had games started in Texas, California and New York.

The games are easy to start. The hard part is rounding up enough local players to get a good game going. I had thought there were more players out there who just had to be first-to-find. GeoPoker was designed with that drive in mind.

Posted by Scout on Feb. 20 2004,3:35 pm
GeoPoker has just seen its first winner. A game in Portland, Oregon finished. The winning hand was a pair of Aces. The game saw 52 finds in 14 days by 13 different players. Very fast-paced and exciting. There are still several other games underway and one about to start in North Carolina.
Posted by PC Medic on Feb. 20 2004,4:44 pm
Just an observation, but seems this may be getting a bit off topic ffrom the original post, and for the "Using the website" area. Maybe continuing Geopoker in another area like General Discussion or Misc. Information of Interest.  :thumbs-up  would be better.
Posted by GeoRockers on Mar. 18 2004,7:10 pm
Greetings All!

Quote (Scout @ Aug. 21 2003,1:54 pm)
Are moving caches allowed?

Quote (Team Bohica @ Sep. 09 2003,8:36 am)
I have a moving cache here in Austin. Look up the 'Rock that Rolls' on the other site. I had tried to list it here first but it was never approved.


Oops, this is embarassing... we've had a 'moving' cache type in our 'hide a cache' form since March 2002.


George

Posted by PC Medic on Mar. 19 2004,8:18 am
Yes, but this thread had started while you were away during a brief period of not accepting them till we 'defined' what a 'Moving' cache was.

All is good now though :thumbs-up



Posted by cacherunner on April 11 2004,10:23 pm
I'm glad to hear that you folks allow travelling caches. We had one grandfathered on the 'other' site, and have since had it archived. It was hugely popular in the 3 days that it was active.< South Island Limo >
I would love to post it on this site. How it worked here, is, there would be a roll of flagging tape in the cache container. When the finder found it, they would cut off a small piece, write their handle and the time they found it on the tape, and tie the tape near the cache site. That way, it eliminated unnecessary searching. I hope this will be OK. There are a lot of people here in Victoria, who would love to see this cache reactivated.

Posted by PC Medic on April 12 2004,4:54 am
Well from what you describe so far it sounds as though it MAY be OK. Unfortunately because you have chosen to make the listing on GC.com viewable by paying members only (something I am not, for obvious reasons), I can not get any more detail on it at this time. My best suggestion would be to submit the listing so that we may review it and make the decision.
Posted by cacherunner on April 12 2004,12:40 pm
Oops! Sorry about that, PC!  :(  I have submitted it for approval here, using the same text I used on my original hide. I hope it's OK. Apologies again.! I was so excited to post here, that I forgot I had done that. Unfortunately, GC.Com won't let me edit the page to change the status. I look forward to hiding more caches with you folks!
Posted by PC Medic on April 12 2004,4:16 pm
No problem and welcome to Navicache by the way  :wave
It appears Georockers beat me to it, but it has been approved.

Posted by cacherunner on April 12 2004,4:59 pm
Thanks Bryan, and Georockers! I just have to let everyone who's interested in hunting the cache know that it's here! Don't be surprised if you get 8-10 new subscribers from Vancouver Island!  :;):
Posted by Mariner on April 14 2004,10:17 pm
I would like to note that our traveler is doing just great, thanks to the Admins on this site. Maybe it's brownnosing, but it sure is nice to see that the Admins here understand the game.
Posted by cacherunner on June 19 2004,12:17 am
Just an update: < South Island Limo > has travelled over 1000km up and down Vancouver Island in the 2 and a half months or so since it's been active!  :D Thank you again to Navicache for approving this cache, and allowing so many Island cachers to enjoy this travelling/moving cache! Last count there were 12 cachers spying on the cache. I think it's a success!!  :cool:
Posted by Quinn on June 22 2004,6:48 pm
you are quite welcome!:D
Posted by PC Medic on June 22 2004,7:32 pm
As Quinn said, you are welcome.

We try to be as open as possible (within reason) and promote the different types and twists that many of you have brought to the sport. Most have worked and become popular, others were not so popular. But the variety and unique ideas everyone has is what keeps it interesting and fun!



Posted by Scout on Nov. 29 2004,9:06 pm
It's taken over a year, but the first GeoPoker cache game has been set up in western NY. It's a hand just dealt by mickEMT. Check it out on < http://poker.gpsgames.org > and run, don't walk, to be FTF.
Posted by cacherunner on Jan. 05 2005,1:20 pm
Just another update: My traveller:

< South Island Limo >

has travelled over 2700km in the 9 months it's been active. It's still popular, and going strong as far as I can tell. There are 12 people spying on it, and having fun maintaining and moving it around. Thanks again for the opportunity!  :wave

Posted by PC Medic on Jan. 05 2005,3:30 pm
Quinn and I actually commented on this cache and how popular it is becoming not to long ago
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