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Topic: Parks Vs Caching, Will caching continue to be allowed in parks< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: July 01 2001,4:08 pm QUOTE

               Not knowing where this topic really belongs I merely selected the X files because it is an important subject to ponder.  Many of you know of my recent adventures in Chicago and I've noticed that some of the caches visited there have disappeared. It seems that the DuPage County Forest Preserves has asked for the removal of all caches in their parks.  A Chicago geocachers group is working with the parks people to re-establish permission to use the parks for caching.  I wrote the following to show my support and respect for the way they seem to be dealing with the problem.  I though I would repeat the comments here because I think the issue will eventually affect some of us in Western New York.

               
Hello fellow cachers. To introduce myself I am a New Yorker who on 2 separate weekends had the opportunity to cache hunt 24 Chicago area hides.  For those I visited, I logged in as Road Kill.  I was (and still am) unfamiliar with where I crossed county lines or where I discovered each cache.  I do know that many of the lovely sights, nature walks, and encounters with others were due to the coordinates provided by cachers.  I am one who enjoys walking in the parks and prior to caching I was missing out on many of them.
This sport has also encouraged me to “Cache in - Trash out”. I have to admit I’m not religiously doing so but I feel I trash out enough to make a difference.  One particular Chicago park (cache) I remember is “Toy Stash”. I keyed in on it because I thought it was a great idea to have one geared just for the kids. I had a small bag of Disney toys to leave and I ended up searching for over an hour.  However, the point I wish to make is that I picked up small pieces of model airplanes, plastic drink bottles and a rusty gear at that site. At the end of the day I had a little over two grocery bags of trash in the trunk that accumulated from other cache sites. As I followed up on my miss I learned of the park pulling the cache. More recently I saw “Pipeline” disappear. The parks reaction is the reason I’ve logged in here to comment.
It is unfortunate that some of you have had to pull your caches, but I admire the respect you’ve given the parks people.  They have a job to do and caching is new to their vocabulary.  The pros are implied above: 1) Caching introduces the parks to the people because someone else has found something to enjoy there.  2) Caching in & trashing out is beneficial and minimally not trashing in is encouraged.  The rub is that one man’s treasure (cache) could be another man’s trash – hidden or not.  As for the cons, consider the reasons you wouldn’t want someone to place one in your yard.
The key is that we create places to have a picnic, play ball, jog, bike, walk, swim, hunt, bird watch and just set quietly to rest or read a book. Again, “Caching” is not in the vocabulary that describes what all the different parks are for. All the above recreation has an impact on what the park becomes after a time.  Parks people need to know that caching is no different than a walk in the woods, a monitored cache hide, and an occasional picking up of trash.  It can be, and usually is, a family oriented sport.
I will be watching the DuPage story because I have hides in State Parks and I’m sure as the sport grows there will be more parks with more concerns. Until then happy caching and help by trashing out.

Road Kill is grinning

I'm asking: "What are your thoughts?".


(Edited by Road Kill at 6:10 pm on July 1, 2001)


(Edited by Road Kill at 6:12 pm on July 1, 2001)

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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: July 01 2001,8:19 pm QUOTE

Undoubtedly, the major concerns of the Parks or Forestry admin revolves around issues of liability. I've been concerned with this also because the mere publication of cache data could legally be considered an attractive nuisance or inducement to "trespass"...

Of course, that's where we come in.. we need to educate and provide a safe and responsible resource for cachers to the best of our ability. George and I have talked about this issue on a couple of occasions. One remedy might be to provide a sort of insurance that might be purchased prior to caching and provide limited liability coverage for all concerned. Airlines do it, why not us?

One point you make is that if you're caching out of town, you may not be aware of whether you're on public or private land. I don't know the answer to this other than to hope those who post the cache info make that distinction and only post "safe" caches for others to enjoy.

I think the more people are exposed to the sport in a responsible manner (i.e., the Cache In - Cache Out mentality), the more likely it will be supported rahter than squashed out of existence.

Let's face it, the forestry guys don't want Joe Newbie trompin' thru the woods looking for a cache, then falling down a 100 foot gorge (attractive nuisance).. yet they have no qualms about those same people hiking the trails if they aren't looking for a cache?? Hmmm...

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: July 01 2001,10:26 pm QUOTE

    I have doubts about "liability" really being part of the issues related to allowing caching.  While it is an issue if you hide or hunt a cache in a restricted location, it is really the same for joggers, bikers, and other adventurers. The liability part comes in when someone violates the rules.  If the sign says "Stay on the paths and boardwalks" Whether you hide a cache 1 ft to the right or park your biking 1 ft to the right, your in violation.
    I think the real issue is environmental impact. Is this box a threat because it resides in an area that could be damaged due to increased traffic?  Does the container present itself as trash?  Again I refer to a cache in ones own yard. Is someone going to damage a shrub or walk through my garden? I believe if enough people come by eventually they will do damage.
   Gosh! It sounds like I'm against cachers.  Actually I’m not.  I'm saying the parks people have no idea what caching is let alone what impact it will have.  We also have the few who pick wild flowers, park on grass areas, and toss a plastic bottle. Therein lays the problems. It doesn't matter whether they are biking, hunting, swimming, picnicking, caching or just passing through. And there is my point.  Cachers as cachers pose no additional threat.  The parks just have to figure that out.
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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: July 02 2001,12:51 am QUOTE

I agree they have to figure that out but I really doubt their concerns have anything to do with environmental impact (at least, not in a major sense). You're not going to hide something where it's readily visible or accessible to others by the very nature of the game. It goes without saying that you're going to have to go off the beaten path in order to make it challenging at all. So, I think the real concerns are about safety but that's just my opinion. I know if I were in the Front Office someplace, I'd be saying something like "Quimby, license those cacher people! Make 'em buy a permit!".. and in one sense I hope that's actually where it's headed. The money from permits to "hide on public lands" can go towards the environmental impact issue. I 'd rather see that than be banned altogether.
I think we should nip this trend in the bud and write our congressman <he says seriously>.
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Delta Team Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,7:13 am QUOTE

I would like to Chime in as well. I feel that the parks are there for the public to enjoy, no matter what the "Sport" they are indulging in. I know that safety can be an issue as the terrain in some parks can be hazardous to some Cachers. I have a family team with our youngest being 6. It is our responsiblitity to take him out on Caches we know he can do. Therefore some sort of protocol should be in place so that a family just starting out has an idea for park terrain and safety.

The parks are apprehensive at the influx of peoeple and the dangers I am sure, but if it were better explained to them I am sure they would see the benefits for all. Families getting back to nature, which you see on the news all the time... And they would have increased revenue, if admission was needed.

Well I hope that it doesn't hurt the sport, and that the Parks catch up to this ever growing sport.

"Cache in.. Trash out"

Happy Cacheing
Delta Team

(Edited by Delta Team at 9:14 am on July 5, 2001)

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YardBoy Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,10:39 am QUOTE

I hit Jennings Journey yesterday & we're not carrying out the trash.  I posted pix.  Based on that crime scene, I went to A B Sea Breeze at 7AM today...sure enough, trash next to the cache :throwupen:
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deforest Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,6:09 pm QUOTE

YardBoy and BLACKWATCH CLAN bring up very good points about our sport.  Cache in, Trash out is a great motto and I have to admit that I don't always trash out.   The other point, especially with regard to parks is that there is a real problem if extensive bushwacking and trampling make cachers look like Tasmanian devils.  If not the liability, then surely this aspect will make us unwelcome in the paks.   Not being a dedicated cache-placer it might be good for all to share tips on what makes good vs. 'better' placements.  Obviously mature hardwoods are easy to maneuver without trampling but a good deal of the caches in this area, at this time of year demand some brush-busting, especially with teams of cahers (families) joining in the hunt.  I commend BLACKWATCH CLAN for removing the Jenning's cache when they felt there was a negative impact to the area.  We should all be aware that as the sport grows, everyone will literally be 'beating a path' to the caches.  Perhaps a new forum/topic could be started regarding tips and techniques for environmentally sound cache-hiding...
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,7:31 pm QUOTE

The Cache in Trash out diea is great by far. But there are several things many of you need to understand about traffic in cache areas. One such thing is that paths are not always made by geocachers. Hikers and bikers also make these paths as well as animals. One such instance was a cache placed by Gimpy called "maps" Caron and I were the first to visit this cache and you would have thought we were about 100th on the list of finds. The area was trampled badly in close by locations. But I am certain that most of this was caused by animals and surveyors doing construction for a nearby project. But Someone will have to be a "Badguy" if this sport is going to work. So I take it on myself to be the one for this site that If I feel a cache is being of damage to an area due to path wear or trash, then I will remove it or ask that it be removed from the area. Don't get me wrong! I would never touch anothers cache, but I would remove the listing from the site if several other Geocachers made mention of path damage to a vital area. So please continue feedback about this, and if we all work together we can continue to have a great time for years to come. There are several forms of Geocaching, so it doesnt have to always be a box placed in the woods.   :)
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Bob Bowter Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,8:48 pm QUOTE

The most physically demanding cache that I have gone after, GCNP Bright Angel (GC5F1), was not the standard "ammo box under the fallen tree" variety and it did not involve any off trail travel.
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YardBoy Offline
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    Posted: July 05 2001,11:13 pm QUOTE

I don't so much question the cache "Jennings Journey" or its creator Blackwatch Clan, rather, I'm disappointed with the stampeding searchers & those who can't pick up a styrofoam cup.  I don't believe that teams of cachers (families) demand some brush-busting.  We can walk like Indians, watching where we step & how we push the branches.  I've been watching "MAPs Maiden" here in Spencerport, taking before & after pictures.  There are many trails (some deer), but the cache is in a clean, isolated clump to one side.  I've repaired where someone bulled their way in.  Suggestions: 1) if you have a crew, send one person in for the final 10 feet & 2) examine the contents away from its final resting place.  Personally, I've laid my 2 caches in pretty open areas.  It's also an act of kindness to those of us with the eTrex GPS :cool: Thanks.
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Gimpy Offline
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    Posted: July 06 2001,2:11 am QUOTE

I must have missed something.When was the Jennings cache pulled?It's still listed on the cache page.
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deforest Offline
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    Posted: July 06 2001,4:26 am QUOTE

According to the Geocaching page:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=3707

The cache will be pulled ASAP.

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Gimpy Offline
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    Posted: July 06 2001,9:12 am QUOTE

Sorry about that. I was only looking at the Navicache page. Got it now. Thanks.
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pennygold Offline
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    Posted: July 09 2001,9:27 pm QUOTE

Interesting topic, thought I'd throw in another perspective.  I was recently describing geocaching to a relative who is in law enforcement, and his immediate reaction was that he would be very reluctant to open a box he found in the woods, and his first reaction would be to call the bomb squad.  This probably reflects a degree of paranoia from years on the job, but this might also reflect the possible reaction of some park administrators to the existence of hidden boxes with unknown contents in their territory.  Perhaps enlightening the powers-that-be that this is strictly an innocent game would be a good approach, but I think I'd lean toward that 1960's slogan, "It's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission", and just keep quiet and wait to see if any objections arise.  
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    Posted: July 09 2001,9:44 pm QUOTE

I've decided to finesse this issue by experimenting with virtual caches. Eliminating the physical cache puts geocaching on the same plane as hiking, jogging, biking, hunting, fishing, etc. There are still issues with all of these, but there's no reason to single out geocaching for special restrictions. (Immunity from plundering is another plus for virtual caches. There are other pluses, too.)

The downside to virtual caches is that there is no hidden "treasure" at the end of the hunt. This is a significant downside, which is why I said I am *experimenting* with virtual caches. I'm trying to find alternatives that can stimulate some of the thrill in finding the cache.

(Edited by Scout at 10:45 pm on July 9, 2001)

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deforest Offline
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    Posted: July 10 2001,4:18 am QUOTE

I too have thought about the "cache box mistaken for bomb' scenario and even had a dream a while ago about seeing one of those bomb squad robots driving around on the evening news with an outstretched arm and a .50 cal box saying 'navicache' on the side.  Problem is, I know of nothing better that is less 'menacing' than what good 'ol uncle sam has provided us.  So much for placing a cache in the airport!  I'm not convinced about plastic yet.  Maybe we should paint the boxes up like Sesame Street and write 'Not a Bomb' on it?  :)
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: July 10 2001,7:23 am QUOTE

well the bomb thing has been touched before on other forums, but I think it best to just get it out of the way now.  You are much safer Geocaching than you would be opening your own mail at home. You would seem to have more to worry about some crazed sniper waiting in a tree than you would about opening a geocache box.
I am not saying however that someone wouldn't try to do something stupid like that. But I am also not saying that in the morning when you grab your paper off the front porch that it won't explode. Idiots out there don't need geocaching as a means to kill or hurt someone, if they wish to do this they will do it in any fashion they see fit. I suppose another way around this would be to use clear plastic containers for caches, but I myself for one will continue to use the cans as I do not feel there is a danger. I will however mention on my cache submissions what type of cache it is, this way if someone feels a bit leary about going after it then they can decline if they so wish.
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YardBoy Offline
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    Posted: July 10 2001,12:36 pm QUOTE

Reminds me of the time I heard Quinn & Dave approaching a cache in Webster & I hid in the bushes.  IF they had found the box & IF I shouted "boom"...j/k
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: July 10 2001,6:34 pm QUOTE

I carry a beretta .40cal with me. Yelling boom while opening a cache might have followed by another :biggrin:
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dgridley Offline
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    Posted: July 10 2001,8:10 pm QUOTE

Well, Quinn and I have discussed this very issue and my feelings are that it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt in a bad way by some nut case wanting to make a name for himself or just out to hurt others... one small reason I prefer clearly labeled plastic containers for caches. The Sterilite hobby totes may not be ideal for all climes but they are clear and do allow someone to reasonably inspect the contents before opening the cache. Of course, there's always the possibility the cache itself won't be the danger but rather someone using caches as an opportunity to lure people into the woods as easy pickins.. just a sign o' the times I guess.

In fact, when we couldn't locate a cache today in Syracuse, we joked that we should report the coordinates to the bomb squad and follow them in!

Virtual caches are a good idea and resolve several touchy issues. The prize doesn't have to be in the cache.. rather, providing suitable proof you reached the cache, you might submit your name and address for a prize to mailed to you later.

Just a couple valid concerns that need to be addressed... more later... I'm looking over a new web editor in another window!

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: Aug. 10 2001,7:29 pm QUOTE

A re-quote of a comment made at another forum.  This is a reply in "Checking your caches?" in "Questions And Answers About Geocaching".  Just trying to revive an old topic.

To PC Medic - I'm confused. You say:"Don't know about anyone else but I don't care to see my parks and trails littered with ammo cans and 5 gal buckets any more than I want to see gum wrappers." But you also say:"(I) am hoping to check on mine this weekend."  If you don't use cans or buckets, what DO you litter with?  If you don't go to the Parks and use trails, Where DO you litter?  Please don't get upset because; I only over expressed your statements in jest.  However, I'm sure someone out there is reading it that way.  This has been an ongoing topic, which is, to define litter and deside whether a Cache box fits that discription.  Another question for thought is: If we take out 3 trash bags full does that allow us to leave one small box?  All we can do is trash out and hope the parks, or in a few cases land owners, continue to allow it.

(Edited by Road Kill at 9:31 pm on Aug. 10, 2001)

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    Posted: Aug. 10 2001,8:38 pm QUOTE

Quote:
Quote: from Road Kill on 9:29 pm on Aug. 10, 2001
 This has been an ongoing topic, which is, to define litter and deside whether a Cache box fits that discription.  Another question for thought is: If we take out 3 trash bags full does that allow us to leave one small box?  All we can do is trash out and hope the parks, or in a few cases land owners, continue to allow it.
(Edited by Road Kill at 9:31 pm on Aug. 10, 2001)

Rather than repost my entire response from the other forum I will simply leave it up to those interested to go check it out.

As for whether we (or anyone) would define a cache as litter I would say depends on its placement.  Place an un-camoflauged bucket or container in the woods and I would probably call that litter.  Place that same container in the same spot slightly covered by branches or leaves so as not to be in plain sight, and I would not.

And NO, that doesn't mean if you back your pickup into my favorite park and unload your garbage, then cover it with branches and leaves that it would not be littering :)

See, this debate could go on forever.  So, I say just use common sense and check your caches. If you decide you are getting board with the sport, remove them or post ask another cacher if they would like to adopt it.  But don't just place them and forget about them.


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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: Aug. 15 2001,9:08 pm QUOTE

Well said.  There is another reason to tend to caches that pertains to one of mine.  That is safety. "West Meets East", located in Letchworth Park, is in an area where the waterfall produces a mist and icy trails in the winter months.  The late winter thaws also produce rock slides. Athough the Park puts up barricades, people have been known to go around thinking they are wiser than others.  Every 3 to 4 years a wiseman becomes a fool and gets into trouble.  For that reason I intend to pull the cache but then replace it come spring after the danger has passed.  Target date to pull "West Meets East" is Nov 3rd.  I would not leave it there as a calling card to a fool.  I hope others consider similar issues with their hides.
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Quinn Offline
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    Posted: Sep. 03 2001,6:15 pm QUOTE

WARNING:

It has come to my attention that in a bleak move to save a few dollars, Roadkill has taken a few steps backwards. Instead of buying the Quality brand of Rogaine, he has decided to buy "Rogaine for Critters"...see the outcome of this?

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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: Oct. 17 2001,5:11 pm QUOTE

Hmm. No chatter replies on this topic since the photo shot.  I' assume everyone is in awe.
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    Posted: Oct. 17 2001,5:20 pm QUOTE

Nope, Still just trying to stop .......  :rotflmao:



Edited by PC Medic on --
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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: Oct. 17 2001,7:05 pm QUOTE

Took me a moment to catch the "rolling in laughter" Grinn.
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Road Kill Offline
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    Posted: Oct. 17 2001,7:35 pm QUOTE

On a Serious note.  Back on August 15th I posted (Not to requote read above)  that every so often someone makes a mistake. To some extent I regret mentioning it now. Not to say I told you so - but to press home a big be careful out there.

I have not dug into all the facts nor do I care to. The short of it is that someone made a fatal mistake not far from West Meets East the weekend of 10/13.  I heard they were in an area they weren't supposed to be in and went over an embankment.  I believe I heard they were from Syracuse and the last name was Kash. Spooky but true.

If someone knows this story better than I and I've made an incorrect statement I'll gladly edit this post.

In the park 2 weeks ago myself I saw a lot of people taking chances.  I hope all who read this ponder a bit.  

(Edited by Road Kill at 11:25 pm on Oct. 25, 2001)

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    Posted: Oct. 17 2001,11:52 pm QUOTE

Living in Virginia now I do not visit the park anymore but when I was a kid remember seeing the same. Was probably guilty myself from time to time.

I also saw the recent article you refer to about the poor guy who went into the gorge. Don't remember any of the details however.

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    Posted: Oct. 18 2001,12:31 am QUOTE

I too was right in that area, on Sunday. Here's the story.
http://www.rochesternews.com/1015story17.html  
Some really beautiful  spots along there, but a lot of them are not places to get stupid.
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