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Topic: Navicache geocache data policy< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
KFL Offline
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Posts: 152
Joined: Mar. 2008
    Posted: Mar. 09 2010,9:23 pm QUOTE

Hi,

I am not sure about the policy about the cache data on navicache.com. Let me restrict the discussion to the caches, excluding the logs. There are three types: open, non-commercial and personal use only.
Up until recently, my impression was that I can use data from
- open caches for anything I like
- non-commercial caches for anything not commercial
- personal use caches only for myself

However, then I stumbled over the XML interface and what I read in the header was this:

Quote

<!-- Terms Of Use and Specifications for XML data                 -->
<!-- transferred from navicache.com                               -->
<!--                                                              -->
<!-- This data is provided AS IS. Navicache makes no warranties   -->
<!-- or representations as to its accuracy. Use of this data is   -->
<!-- restricted to the terms set out below and those listed in    -->
<!-- the Disclaimers for navicache.com                            -->
<!--                                                              -->
<!-- 1. You may use this data for personal and non-commercial     -->
<!--    use ONLY.                                                 -->
<!-- 2. You may not redistribute this cache data without prior    -->
<!--    permission from Navicache.com and then for non-commercial -->
<!--    use ONLY and only providing that the original source of   -->
<!--    such data is declared in one of the following manners:    -->
<!--    (Data Source=NaviCache or 'Courtesy of NaviCache' ).      -->
<!-- 3. If this data is used on another cache server, then        -->
<!--    permission is granted to NaviCache for accessing of other -->
<!--    caching data at the cache server (fair use in kind).      -->
<!-- 4. You may not provide any means for others to obtain this   -->
<!--    data from our servers without the direct use of this      -->
<!--    script either by way of another script or submission      -->
<!--    form.                                                     -->


That makes me wonder. It states this is only valid for the XML data. But looking at the data itself, that is not really different from the data in the GPX files or the cache websites. Where does this policy really apply to?

I don't quite understand point 4. How should I provide something to obtain these data from navicache.com servers? Should that maybe read 'your' and not 'our' servers? Should this prevent someone just offering a complete XML file on their own servers? Or is this there to be sure that the throttling is not circumvented?

Most of those questions are not really relevant for me. I do not plan another cache site. However, I am playing with interactive cache maps and at some point would like to give others also access to them (maybe even from navicache itself one day, who knows). You could see this probably as being similar to Buxley's maps. Of course I would clearly indicate the origin of the data. I don't want to 'steal' any data or credit. Those maps are only meant to be helpful. But with the current terms of use of the XML data I am not sure if I am allowed to use them this way.

Let's for the following assume I interpreted the XML Terms incorrectly, or I get the information by other means (websites, GPX, GPSS). Am I then correct that I can use (a) 'open' caches for whatever I like, (b) 'non-commercial' caches for anything not commercial and © 'personal use' caches only for myself?

In the context of the maps, am I right that I am only allowed to use data from 'open' and 'non-commercial' caches, but I cannot use data from 'personal use only' caches? How does "Buxley" handle that? He is not navicache, yet 'personal use only' caches are displayed there. Is it ok to use the coordinates of personal-use-only caches, but nothing else - or maybe the coordinates + waypoint (cache number), but nothing else - such that it is at least possible to 'know' that there is a cache, with a hint as to where to look for more information?

If I offer an interactive map, some parts of these data have to be offered from another server than navicache.com (e.g. in a better suited format). However, this clearly is a redistribution of the data, as prohibited in point (2) (at least without explicit permission). Isn't prohibiting redistribution of cache data somehow against the whole 'free cache data' idea (obeying the wishes of the owners of course)?

Please do not think I am particularly picky. I just want to know beforehand where I am standing with using these data. I don't only want any legal trouble, but I also don't want to create a bad mood or any misunderstanding.

I am sorry if I didn't understand some obvious things. I would be happy if this could be explained maybe just in other words.

thanks, KFL
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KFL Offline
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    Posted: Mar. 31 2010,9:34 pm QUOTE

Isn't here anyone who could answer those questions?
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PC Medic Offline
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    Posted: April 01 2010,4:15 pm QUOTE

Quote (KFL @ Mar. 09 2010,11:23 pm)
Hi,

I am not sure about the policy about the cache data on navicache.com. Let me restrict the discussion to the caches, excluding the logs. There are three types: open, non-commercial and personal use only.
Up until recently, my impression was that I can use data from
- open caches for anything I like
- non-commercial caches for anything not commercial
- personal use caches only for myself


Keep in mind that the above is an 'acceptable use' option for an individual cache stipulated by the cache owner at the time the cache is submitted for listing. Do not confuse this with the 'Terms Of Use' supplied within the header of the XML file which is available for download. The XML download is provided to allow members to download large numbers of listings from our database. You are still expected to adhere to the individual cache owners 'acceptable use' restrictions with regards to their cache listing(s).

Quote

However, then I stumbled over the XML interface and what I read in the header was this:

Quote

<!-- Terms Of Use and Specifications for XML data                 -->
<!-- transferred from navicache.com                               -->
<!--                                                              -->
<!-- This data is provided AS IS. Navicache makes no warranties   -->
<!-- or representations as to its accuracy. Use of this data is   -->
<!-- restricted to the terms set out below and those listed in    -->
<!-- the Disclaimers for navicache.com                            -->
<!--                                                              -->
<!-- 1. You may use this data for personal and non-commercial     -->
<!--    use ONLY.                                                 -->
<!-- 2. You may not redistribute this cache data without prior    -->
<!--    permission from Navicache.com and then for non-commercial -->
<!--    use ONLY and only providing that the original source of   -->
<!--    such data is declared in one of the following manners:    -->
<!--    (Data Source=NaviCache or 'Courtesy of NaviCache' ).      -->
<!-- 3. If this data is used on another cache server, then        -->
<!--    permission is granted to NaviCache for accessing of other -->
<!--    caching data at the cache server (fair use in kind).      -->
<!-- 4. You may not provide any means for others to obtain this   -->
<!--    data from our servers without the direct use of this      -->
<!--    script either by way of another script or submission      -->
<!--    form.                                                     -->


That makes me wonder. It states this is only valid for the XML data. But looking at the data itself, that is not really different from the data in the GPX files or the cache websites. Where does this policy really apply to?



Careful when reading 'Terms Of Use' not to read something that is not there. At no point does it state that those terms are ONLY for the XML cache data. You are correct in that the data in the XML file is not much different than what is available in the GPX files or on the website. What the policy here applies to is the the XML file and the method in which the data is being retrieved.

To break it down a little better...

"1. You may use this data for personal and non-commercial use ONLY."  - Meaning that you can use it to load into a GPS, for research, archival purposes, etc so long as you are not receiving compensation from anyone for doing so and it is for your own personal use.  

"2. You may not redistribute this cache data without prior  permission from Navicache.com and then for non-commercial  use ONLY and only providing that the original source of such data is declared in one of the following manners: (Data Source=NaviCache or 'Courtesy of NaviCache' ) " .

You can also (WITH PERMISSION) share the data with others by burning the file to CD to be GIVEN away, posting the file to a site for download, loading the data into a database on your own site for others to access, etc, providing you do not charge a fee of any kind in order for others to access the data contained within the XML file obtained from our database. You will also provide credit for the file when distributed or within each and every listing if used on another site as stated.

"3. If this data is used on another cache server, then    permission is granted to NaviCache for accessing of other  caching data at the cache server (fair use in kind) " .

This is where the Geocaching rule of etiquette 'take something out, put something in' comes into play. In other words, If you do in fact make the data available to others through another cache server/database/site that you maintain, and others have listed caches on your site that are not currently cross-listed on navicache.com, then you grant us the right and will provide a means for us to access that data to be added to our database as well. Share and share alike I guess you could say.

Quote

I don't quite understand point 4. How should I provide something to obtain these data from navicache.com servers? Should that maybe read 'your' and not 'our' servers? Should this prevent someone just offering a complete XML file on their own servers? Or is this there to be sure that the throttling is not circumvented?


"4. You may not provide any means for others to obtain this
data from our servers without the direct use of this script either by way of another script or submission form."

No it should read 'our servers' not 'your'. This was added due to the fact that when we first made the option to download the XML data available, rather than create their own database a few sites created forms that permitted their users to enter criteria, then pull the XML file from our database, sort the data and then display what their user had requested. This prompted some changes on our end as well as the addition of #4 in order to reduce server load.                            


Quote

Most of those questions are not really relevant for me. I do not plan another cache site. However, I am playing with interactive cache maps and at some point would like to give others also access to them (maybe even from navicache itself one day, who knows). You could see this probably as being similar to Buxley's maps. Of course I would clearly indicate the origin of the data. I don't want to 'steal' any data or credit. Those maps are only meant to be helpful. But with the current terms of use of the XML data I am not sure if I am allowed to use them this way.


Of course it could be possible (with permission) to offer such a mapping service. Where do you think Ed "Buxley's" gets the data for his Navicache listed caches? The difference here is 'you' would be accessing the needed data (coordinates, cacahe name, status), and then simply providing pins/links back to the corresponding cache listing on our site. Because you are not actually redistributing the data itself, no foul. By the way, the XML data file is not the preferred method to do this .

Quote

Let's for the following assume I interpreted the XML Terms incorrectly, or I get the information by other means (websites, GPX, GPSS). Am I then correct that I can use (a) 'open' caches for whatever I like, (b) 'non-commercial' caches for anything not commercial and © 'personal use' caches only for myself?


That depends. Again that flag (open, personal, non-commercial) is meant as a way for the cache owner to further restrict how their cache listing is used should we decide to share the data with others. How our data may be accessed and reused is a seperate policy contained within or XML files Terms Of Use statement and the sites policy.

Quote

In the context of the maps, am I right that I am only allowed to use data from 'open' and 'non-commercial' caches, but I cannot use data from 'personal use only' caches? How does "Buxley" handle that? He is not navicache, yet 'personal use only' caches are displayed there. Is it ok to use the coordinates of personal-use-only caches, but nothing else - or maybe the coordinates + waypoint (cache number), but nothing else - such that it is at least possible to 'know' that there is a cache, with a hint as to where to look for more information?


He is not displaying the cache listing, simply a link back to the cache listing that the owner has submitted and retains the ability to access/edit. That is where the big difference comes in.

Quote

If I offer an interactive map, some parts of these data have to be offered from another server than navicache.com (e.g. in a better suited format). However, this clearly is a redistribution of the data, as prohibited in point (2) (at least without explicit permission). Isn't prohibiting redistribution of cache data somehow against the whole 'free cache data' idea (obeying the wishes of the owners of course)?


Not prohibited...simply requires that you ask permission. The 'open-caching' concept (which originated here by the way) only stipulated that all members have equal access to all cache listings. Cache listings as submitted by the cache owner should not be available exclusively to premium members/paying subscribers if a non-paying or different member level does not have access to that same listing. In other words...No "pay for play". This is done via the standard cache listing pages. Now if a site owner wishes to offer premium services such as alternate methods of accessing their data (like XML, GPX, GPSS, etc), include maps within the listing page, nearby points of interest, etc. and make those services available for paid members only, then that would be entirely up to them and still within the open-caching concept.

Quote

Please do not think I am particularly picky. I just want to know beforehand where I am standing with using these data. I don't only want any legal trouble, but I also don't want to create a bad mood or any misunderstanding.

I am sorry if I didn't understand some obvious things. I would be happy if this could be explained maybe just in other words.

thanks, KFL


This post is not meant to add to or detract from any posted policy so ...Best I can add at this point...if in doubt, ask!


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KFL Offline
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Posts: 152
Joined: Mar. 2008
    Posted: April 03 2010,9:37 am QUOTE

Quote (PC Medic @ April 01 2010,5:15 pm)
Keep in mind that the above is an 'acceptable use' option for an individual cache stipulated by the cache owner at the time the cache is submitted for listing. Do not confuse this with the 'Terms Of Use' supplied within the header of the XML file which is available for download.

You are right - when using cache data one has to obey to both: the terms of use for the cache itself and for the site it is listed at.

Quote
At no point does it state that those terms are ONLY for the XML cache data.


Quote
Terms Of Use and Specifications for XML data


I was reading it as "(Terms of Use and Specifications) for XML data" whereas I could also have read it as "Terms of Use and (Specifications for XML data)". I am aware that the site itself also has Terms of Use, but they read differently (http://www.navicache.com/cgi-bin/db/Disclaimer.pl). However, thanks for clarifying this.

Quote
What the policy here applies to is the the XML file and the method in which the data is being retrieved.


So is what you say here that while the usage of the retrieved data is the same, obviously there have to be limitations onto how the data is retrieved, e.g. to prevent high server load or transfer volumes?

Quote
"1. You may use this data for personal and non-commercial use ONLY."  - Meaning that you can use it to load into a GPS, for research, archival purposes, etc so long as you are not receiving compensation from anyone for doing so and it is for your own personal use.  


Sounds great. However, with caches being classified as "open" I would have assumed I can use the data for anything. What is the point of providing both 'open' and 'non-commercial' cache classifications if in the end 'open' caches are restricted by site policy in the same way as 'non-commercial' caches are already by the owner? Did I miss something?
This also applies to the next point:

Quote
"2. You may not redistribute this cache data without prior  permission from Navicache.com and then for non-commercial  use ONLY and only providing that the original source of such data is declared in one of the following manners: (Data Source=NaviCache or 'Courtesy of NaviCache' ) " .


Quote
"3. If this data is used on another cache server, then    permission is granted to NaviCache for accessing of other  caching data at the cache server (fair use in kind) " .

This is where the Geocaching rule of etiquette 'take something out, put something in' comes into play. In other words, If you do in fact make the data available to others through another cache server/database/site that you maintain, and others have listed caches on your site that are not currently cross-listed on navicache.com, then you grant us the right and will provide a means for us to access that data to be added to our database as well. Share and share alike I guess you could say.


This means another site doesn't have the possibility to provide the owners with a possibility to keep their listings only on that site _and_ to provide navicache data as well. With "Share and share alike" this also means that navicache would also share all data - even the 'personal use only' data, is this right?

Quote
"4. You may not provide any means for others to obtain this
data from our servers without the direct use of this script either by way of another script or submission form."
No it should read 'our servers' not 'your'. This was added due to the fact that when we first made the option to download the XML data available, rather than create their own database a few sites created forms that permitted their users to enter criteria, then pull the XML file from our database, sort the data and then display what their user had requested. This prompted some changes on our end as well as the addition of #4 in order to reduce server load.  


Thanks to clarify that. So it would be ok to build a separate database (and update it regularly) and then provide these data from another server, not using any traffic or load on navicache.org? This would be essential for interactive maps.

Quote
Of course it could be possible (with permission) to offer such a mapping service.


While I wouldn't have a problem asking for permission (I hereby do), this basically says the cache data from navicache.com (also) cannot be used without permission on another site, not even the 'open' data?

Quote
Where do you think Ed "Buxley's" gets the data for his Navicache listed caches?


He obviously isn't using the GPX or XML interface - both have problems and he doesn't seem to have them. He could use GPSS, but I guess he has another, more efficient interface.

Quote
The difference here is 'you' would be accessing the needed data (coordinates, cacahe name, status),

A bit more than that (e.g. difficulty, terrain, owner, ect), but essentially yes.

Quote
and then simply providing pins/links back to the corresponding cache listing on our site.


That is right.

Quote
Because you are not actually redistributing the data itself, no foul.


I would redistribute the data, at least in parts. The big difference would be that I would not provide a means to (a) change it and (b) log something. It would be a read-only 'navicache extension' so to speak.

Quote
Again that flag (open, personal, non-commercial) is meant as a way for the cache owner to further restrict how their cache listing is used should we decide to share the data with others. How our data may be accessed and reused is a seperate policy contained within or XML files Terms Of Use statement and the sites policy.


Ok, let me ask specifically: I listed my caches here as 'open'. I assumed this means anybody can use that information as they like. With your quote above however, it's use would still be restricted, rendering the 'open' and 'non-commercial' caches effectively the same. Am I right with the latter statement?
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